Saturday, August 23, 2014

Six!


Six years ago today, I started this blog as a tribute to something I'd only discovered three months earlier. The fact that I'm still at it six years later speaks to the depth of the material I had only glimpsed when I started. I once started another blog on a different subject and lost interest after only a couple of months. I do tend to lose interest easily. In college, I changed majors and colleges several times, and after college I changed careers twice. Six years on one subject, for me, is remarkable.

I have no formal education or background in the subjects I explore on this blog. Everything here I learned since 2008, through reading, thinking and writing this blog. Once you understand the basics, it's mostly common sense. But the real strength behind my subject matter is the foundation I chose as my muse, the five years of Freegold archives left behind by someone calling himself "Another" and his friend, "Friend of Another" or FOA.

Many people write blogs related to their profession or area of expertise and influence. This is not one of those blogs. If I have any level of expertise or influence in the subject of my blog (which is not my judgment to make), then it comes from writing this blog, not the other way around. So I am deeply moved whenever real professionals make comments praising what is essentially my hobby.

As this is an anniversary post, here are comments from a couple such professionals over the past six years. Krassimir Petrov is an economics professor from Bulgaria who has been blogging and writing articles since well before the global financial crisis. He received his PhD in economics from Ohio State University and now teaches in the Middle East and Southeast Asia. In 2010 on his blog, he sent his readers to one of my posts with this recommendation:

"This is one of the very best contributions in the inflation-deflation debate. It is long and detailed, but the topic is extraordinarily complex."

Two weeks later, after reading some of my earlier posts, he added this:

"FOFOA is probably one of the very best analyst in the whole world. The more I read from him, the more I am convinced of his vast superiority over most experts and analysts…"

In 2011, I wrote a post directed at Rick Ackerman. Rick is a professional trader, financial advisor and blogger with a large following, well known as a hard-core deflationist. My post was an attempt at addressing his 30-year aversion toward dollar hyperinflation as the final outcome, using FOA's reasoning. Within days of my post going up, he left the following comment on my blog which made the hairs on my arms stand at attention when I first read it:

"Sheesh! Where to begin? It's difficult to give up a belief system that took root 30 years ago, but I find your arguments irresistible. I took notes as I read the essay, thinking to rebut you point-by-point; instead, halfway through it, I found myself overwhelmed by the clarity of your thoughts. The real power of this essay is that each step of the hyperinflationary endgame it foresees is entirely consistent with human nature, particularly where self-interest and self-preservation are fated to play out.

I will have to find a way to break this gently to my readers, perhaps starting with the joke about not having to outrun the bear. It goes a long way toward explaining how the Masters of the Universe will actually benefit from hyperinflation. You've also helped me understand how I could have been so bullish on gold over the years even though I considered myself a hard-core deflationist. It was a conflict between head and heart, really, but you’ve resolved it with the most persuasive argument I’ve seen in favor of gold. Even better, you’ve provided a sound basis for arguing that at $1500 per oz., gold has barely begun to discount the dollar’s final fall.

I especially appreciate the patience and humility you showed in walking readers through your argument one gentle step at a time. By not trying to overpower your opponents, you have produced a treatise that is certain to engage many minds. Thanks for engaging mine -- at a depth that had eluded me for three decades."

Such comments are wonderful confirmation for my efforts and my presentation, but again, I have no real experience or background in the subject matter. My secret is my deference toward the view presented by Another and FOA. I work to hone the lens they left behind in order to share the view with others, but all credit for the view itself goes to them.

In my last two posts, I have been progressing toward the simple concept that Freegold is all about clean floating exchange rates. Not just a clean float in the price of gold, but in currency exchange rates as well. It's a little more complicated than that, but not really. To "float" simply means that the private sector (also known as the market) determines the exchange rate.

It's not a proposed change of rules or anything like that. Instead, it is the recognition that this is where things are heading on their own, without any further rule changes. It's not a system that will require a clean float or punish a dirty float. Instead, it is the observation that a clean float is what everyone who matters now wants. It is the direction they are all heading today, including the US, Europe and China, and that once a fresh starting point is reached, the rationale behind it will be obvious to everyone and exchange rate manipulation will, for the most part, become a thing of the past.

It's not even that floating exchange rates are the most fundamental principle involved. After all, the euro took many countries which used to have their own currencies and combined them into a single currency zone. There's no floating exchange rate between France and Spain. The more fundamental principle than floating exchange rates is functioning automatic adjustment mechanisms. This principle applies across all borders, whether they share the same currency or not.

The difference is, for adjustment mechanisms to function automatically, wherever an exchange rate exists, it must float, i.e., it must be determined by the private sector. Whenever the public sector intervenes in exchange rates, it prevents the automatic adjustment of imbalances and therefore causes imbalances to accumulate. It's a pretty simple concept.

Public sector intervention in exchange rates covers everything except a common currency and a clean float. Hard fixed, pegged, adjustable peg, dirty float, they all prevent imbalances from correcting gradually and therefore cause them to accumulate, which leads to an unstable and vulnerable situation. Using a common currency or having a clean floating exchange rate leads to balance, stability and invulnerability.

Covering this point properly would require an entire post, and it's one I may write in the future because it is somewhat controversial. But in brief, the reason it is controversial is because one famous economist in particular thinks that hard fixed exchange rates are essentially the same thing as sharing a common currency. They aren't, because what can potentially work in theory has been shown time and again to not work in practice. As FOA said, "This is the way fiats work, whether gold backed or not, they always break from strict printing discipline."

For hard fixed exchange rates to work like a common currency requires "strict printing discipline" in response to international imbalances, while a common currency and a clean float do not. And it's not just discipline that's required, because the complexity of getting the adjustments just right would challenge even a supercomputer. Yet it seems to follow that if a hard fix can work, then looser fixes or adjustable pegs are fine too. But the complexity and difficulty multiplies as you ease away from the hard fix, then it disappears suddenly when you finally give control over to the marketplace.

In any case, such academic exercises are irrelevant at this point as the trend away from fixed exchange rates toward either a common currency or a clean float has been established by those who matter for the last 40 years and then some. It is now "baked into the cake" as they say, so none of this is meant to be a discussion of possibilities. It is simply part of the lens and the view.

What a clean float from a fresh starting point (which I should stress that we do not have yet) will do is to balance trade automatically through the exchange rate. There will be no need for the systemic settlement of trade imbalances. Economy-wide trade imbalances will be corrected gradually, almost imperceptibly, over time through changes in exchange rates.

Different economies obviously produce different things, and different things have different (and constantly changing) relative values. Some economies produce more valuable products with less effort, while others produce less valuable products with more effort. Nor is consumption or the enjoyment of the fruits of one's production equal across different economies. The United States, for example, produces a lot of stuff, more than any other country in the world. We are, in fact, the largest economy in the world (unless you count Europe as a single economy) based on gross domestic product.

Yet even as the largest producer in the world, we still consume more than we produce. FOA said it well. "Collectively, [we use] our own attributes and require the use of other nation's as well… We cannot place [our attributes—our enormous resources and high productivity] up as example of our worth to other nations unless we crash our lifestyle to a level that will allow their export! Something our currency management policy will confront with dollar printing to avert."

Running a trade imbalance is a choice that is most easily made by the net-producer. The choice is to consume less than you produce, which is what makes one a net-producer by definition, and nearly anyone can make that choice. The choice to consume more than one produces, on the other hand, generally requires support from an external source.

Profits are income in excess of costs. They can be invested, saved or consumed, so profits alone don't define a net-producer. It is what you do with your profits that determines whether or not you are running a trade imbalance. Here's a rather confusing comment from Another in 1998:

"As you ponder these thoughts, consider that; all economies today are truly equal in production as the exchange rates are the manufactures of profit!"

As you think about this comment, recall that in my last post I quoted an article about Airbus calling for the ECB to intervene in the foreign exchange market to weaken the euro. The article explained:

"Airbus, which sells its aircraft in dollars but incurs costs in euros, is one of the most exposed groups in Europe to a strong single currency. Other groups such as Unilever, SAP and BMW have also faced currency headwinds."

The list price of an Airbus A380 is $400M (€298M at the exchange rate at the time of writing), but a tough market has forced them to discount the price significantly in order to sell airplanes. Having spent $25B developing the A380, plus the cost of producing each unit, it is estimated that the break-even point will be once they sell 420 planes. So far they have delivered 138 planes and have orders for 180 more.

The bottom line is that their costs of production are still higher than their income for this plane. They need to cut costs or sell more planes at higher prices in order to turn a profit. In a competitive market, you need to be competitive in order to profit. But there is a potential shortcut.

Just as a simplistic exercise, let's say A380 sales are happening at $300M per unit (€224M at the current exchange rate), and production costs are €230M per unit, for a net loss per unit of €6M. If the euro exchange rate was to decline 5% from $1.34 to $1.27, the $300M price would suddenly convert to €236M and the €6M loss per unit would magically become a €6M profit per unit. Without any cost cutting, competitive improvements or increase in price, a profit would have been magically manufactured by simply manipulating the currency exchange rate.

Now read Another's comment again and see if it makes any more sense the second time around:

"As you ponder these thoughts, consider that; all economies today are truly equal in production as the exchange rates are the manufactures of profit!"

Manual labor, like factory work, has the same basic output anywhere in the world. A screw turn is a screw turn whether you're Chinese, French or American. By moving the production facilities for certain parts to China, Airbus could cut costs because, even though the output is the same, the manual labor is cheaper. Part of the reason for that is China's support of the dollar. By weakening the yuan, China lowers the living standard of manual laborers which increases the nominal profits of the company owners, wherever they may reside. This is how exchange rates manufacture profits.

You may think that Chinese laborers work cheaper than, say, United Auto Workers in Detroit, because they are accustomed to a lower standard of living. While it may be true, it will be irrelevant with a clean float. I think we'll all be stunned by how quickly the purchasing power of comparable work on comparable products will equalize across borders between comparable economies with clean floating exchange rates.

Getting the ECB to lower the euro exchange rate through FX intervention would have a similar effect to moving production to another country that already manipulates its currency. It would lower costs at the expense of a lower standard of living for all workers in the local economy while elevating the nominal profits of the company owners, the bonuses of its executives, and the standard of living in America where we can buy overseas using an overvalued dollar. As FOA said, "the world does not hate America; rather they hate the free lifestyle our dollar's illusion value brought us yesterday and today."

There is another way, other than currency exchange rate manipulation, to manufacture profits. That other way is through real cost cutting and real improvement in output, in other words by becoming competitive. From the articles quoted in my last post:

"Currency manipulation is not a route to competitiveness, it is a soft alternative to hard explanations to the electorate."

"We have to concentrate on whether the European economy is competitive and then we will have an appropriate exchange rate."

With this latest honing of the lens, I think that the view of not only what is unfolding in real time is becoming clearer, but also some of Another and FOA's posts from 16 years ago are also making more sense. Here's another one that should be familiar to most of you. Please let me know if you think it makes any more sense with an improved lens:

ANOTHER 5/26/98: "The Western mind does focus on "what I buy today for the lowest price". Yet, in this modern world economy, the lowest price is always the function of "the currency exchange rate"? The Yen, it is compared to the dollar today, and used to purchase goods. One year later and the Japan offers these goods for much less, as the Yen has fallen to the US$. The currency value of this purchase, was it "true" today or a year ago? Understand, all value judgments today are as subject to "exchange rate competition"! It is in "this exchange rate valuations" that the private citizen does denominate all net worth! A safe way to hold the wealth for your future, yes? You should ask a Korean or the Indonesian?"

Here are a few more:

FOA 9/22/98: "The currency confidence factor comes from a strong positive exchange rate, much like that enjoyed by the dollar today. The average European will buy from the USA in the same way that Americans buy bargain goods from other countries. Using an overvalued dollar makes one feel as there is no inflation, even though there has been massive dollar currency inflation over the last twenty years (the real cause of price increases is when the exchange rate is allowed to balance a negative trade deficit)."

FOA 9/26/98: "The possibility of FXC (Foreign Exchange Controls) is very real. This topic has been discussed in several well written books spanning 25 years. In a way, the closing of the gold window in the early 70s was a form of FXC. Anyone outside the country could no longer get their gold because too many dollars had been printed to cover the gold in the US treasury.

Today, too many derivatives have been printed (paper gold is one of them) than can be covered by the outstanding dollars! The US Federal Reserve either prints a load of dollars to cover this contingent or the system falls apart. If the Fed prints, the Americans get inflation. If the Fed doesn't print, the world financial system, based on a dollar reserve currency, starts to implode and foreign holders of dollar assets try to exchange these for their local currency. To do this they must take the dollar home to the USA for exchange! During this exchange, if the dollar loses too much value in the exchange rate, these foreign holders just SPEND THEM in America!

Again, the US experiences price inflation, only this time it's during a global deflation in dollar assets. To stop this chain of events, this time the US Treasury closes the dollar window. It's usually a last effort to hold the banking system together. The gold window was closed by holding gold at a low price valuation and not selling any of it. The dollar window will be closed by buying dollar currency at a rate so low as to stop most major holders from exchanging. This usually brings a two tier market, dollars inside the country worth more than outside the country. For some time, all dollars outside the US were called Eurodollars! Will we see these Eurodollars exchanged for Gold????"


Very briefly, I want to draw your attention to these curious charts of Foreign Direct Investment or FDI in the US:


They come from here, and the data comes from the US Dept. of Commerce Bureau of Economic Analysis, or BEA. You can download the latest BEA Excel spreadsheet for FDI Financial Transactions here. I noticed a curious coincidence when I decided to compare the mysterious FDI outflow to the puzzling "Belgian" Treasury buying from the same quarter.

The net decline in FDI for the first quarter was $117B, but the decline from Europe alone was $124.6B which is on line 15 of the spreadsheet. And if you add up the first quarter increase in "Belgian" (Euroclear?) Treasury holdings from the TIC data, that is, take Belgium's March total ($381.4B) and subtract its December total ($256.8B), you get the same number for the same time period, $124.6B. I'm sure it's just a strange coincidence. ;D

Back to Another and FOA:

ANOTHER 11/17/98: "It is the "practical understanding" that our modern world must use a "digital paper money" for commerce. All accept this. However, without a "gold currency" priced daily in the "free market", and used as real reserves, any "world reserve currency" would expand using "debt only" as the tool. This result brings the eventual reckoning for all users. The "host country" finds all other nations supporting its "lifestyle", even as those country's private financial infrastructure is destroyed. It is the rising US equity markets and falling inflation that so indicates the last days of the dollar! Many say this is a sign of strength for America, yet they know not what time of life the dollar has attained. The "old man" has he become even as persons place their financial horse upon his shoulders. The world debt structure of this "old man" is such that the true pricing of gold in a new currency, will bring such a weight as it will end his life! The purpose of the evolution in "paper gold trade" is offered in many reasons. At first, it was the "deception" to hide the "life age" of the dollar. Much as your Hollywood actors obtain the "facelift", yes? This "deception"(low gold price in US$), to the surprise of many, was created by the "Euro makers" not the "dollar makers". To their advantage, world traders and dollar investors were greatly fooled and, as you say, "jumped on band wagon" to help sell paper gold down! This action did prolong life of dollar as was needed, for the Euro was taking much time to complete…

It has always been the desire for the "hard currency" to settle old dollar debts. Dollar debts made "unreasonable" by the loss of "honest commerce" by "dishonest exchange rates". As has been from the past, and will be in the future, Gold does always settle the score!"

FOA 5/20/99: "The largest difference between the two (Euro / Dollar) is found in how the exchange rate value of each is "Managed" for political purposes. The dollar is ruled by one country and one country only. This implies that only one Economy is taken into consideration when policy is discussed, the USA."

FOA 3/14/99: "This brilliant, modern free trade system and all of its benefits cannot be implemented using the US dollar as a reserve currency. It shuts off commerce that in turn limits the use of commodities such as oil, metals, food and the like. Many hail the low price inflation in the US as a victory and ignore the intent other nations had in following "free trade". That being to promote a world economy, not just a US economy.

Enter the Euro! Understand that the increased use of commodities is a good thing. It's not just for the purpose of making rising chart pattern so speculators can sell their calls! Commodity usage creates real things and helps the lives of real people. When citizens gain real productive mechanisms, they hold real wealth. Some would have you believe that third world people are enriched by saving US treasury bonds, not true! The only way to increase world trade, with an eye on building new consumers in all countries, is to remove the overhang of "dollar settlement"."

FOA 8/2/99: "My friend, I (as taken from Another) use the term "western view" because it is a clouded perception of how the world sees the dollar. For the dollar countries, it buys much at the expense of others. The very strong dollar that "bulls your stock markets" does not clearly represent the value of the foreign goods it is exchanged for. Your view is to save the dollar and the US economy because it is holding up the rest of the world. That is the very problem, as only on a dollar based reserve system does this occur. Instead of using a currency based upon only one countries interest, the USA, use a currency based upon the "conflicting" interest of many nations, the Euro! Under such a system, world trade and exchange rates will balance more fairly."

FOA 9/19/99: "Every day, new evidence emerges that shows Euro liquidity becoming as deep as the dollar with little threat of "dirty float" interventions in exchange rates… The ECB can now slowly phase out dollar reserves as the Euro assumes more of the world trade settlement function. A function in and of itself, that will further lower the dollars world need, use and therefore value. Because the US still runs a trade deficit, it still ships a surplus of dollars to most countries. In today's new Euro world, the dollar exchange rate will eventually be forced to fall enough to balance this flow."

FOA 12/5/99: "In the private sector, it was always the business trade that built up excess dollars as they sold more "goods" to the US for dollars than the US businesses sold to them. Using Japan, the net effect of all their private companies selling into the US created a huge negative balance of trade account. For many years now, if these countries walked into the foreign exchange markets and sold these excess dollars for Yen, it would have drove the yen way up. If done early and before a large position builds up, this is the "natural way" a true fair currency exchange market should work. If the US continues to buy more from Japan than it sells, the currency markets react until the goods being traded are evenly priced.

This action would protect the workers of both countries from being exploited, even though their productive efforts are equal. Contrary to the "business community propaganda" a worker in Japan does not tighten a bolt better or faster than one in the US. Take all the technology innovations and pour it into a big pot along with natural human nature and add some cultural differences. Boil it down and we find that through the world over everyone works the same for the same incentives. Of course the business community always leaves out a "true" incentive / compensation package when comparing national productive effectiveness. Trust me, I've been everywhere and seen it all. You would not work as "effectively" and as productively in, say India, if you received the same pay they do. No, by far and wide, the real national industry productivity measurements are all skewed from "engineered" exchange rates between nations.

So, back to our currency rates. No person or nation ever expanded its wealth by selling two TVs in exchange for one TV. The US knows that the road to national wealth is not in a strong currency by itself, rather it's through operating in a manipulated currency market! If your workers can tighten one bolt in exchange for foreigners tightening two or three bolts, your wealth, standard of living and voting citizens are better off.

Under the old dollar / gold standard, no foreign government wanted to see its people tightening 3 or 4 bolts in trade for every one the US worker did. Perhaps a ratio of one turn for two could work for a while until their economies grew. But no one wanted to get locked into doing this forever, as this modern dollar standard has forced them to do.

It worked better back then as they traded two turns of the nut for one US turn and they retained a little gold wealth in the form of US dollars. Are you still with me? This is important to grasp. …

So, as we can see, nations started holding dollars and US treasury debt because it represented a wealth for wealth exchange. Nations, Japan included, were content to have their Central banks enter the currency exchange markets and buy up the excess dollars their businesses created when they sold more to the US than they bought. In that time they did not think they were exploiting their workers into making two turns on the bolt for one US turn, because they were trading most of the additional "twists" for the wealth of gold.

By 1971 the "dirty float" of currency exchange markets was normal practice until the US closed the gold backing for the dollar. Suddenly, all the dollars that were purchased overseas to adjust the exchange rates were now worthless! The only recourse for governments to regain real wealth for all the additional "nut turns" was to use the dollars to buy local American goods. One problem though, all the dollars were collected while the gold standard impacted exchange rates! Now, with only a pure dirty float for an exchange market, any reverse selling of the dollar into the US would drop that currencies value. So, the good purchased from the US would only represent a tiny return of the wealth value these dollars were originally traded for.

It is here that the story begins to change and the world heads for a new alignment. Everyone in the world was impacted by this move. From oil producers to auto makers in Japan. Everyone lost, big. If gold had become so worthless, as most US politicians proclaimed, why didn't they just revalue what they had left to, say $2,000 and call in what dollars were out there? They didn't because in that scenario they would have drained the dollar as a reserve unit and killed the notion of dollar supremacy. Gold would have regained its exact value as money to the world prior to currency / exchange / standards. Perhaps $3,000 or $4,000 an ounce (back then) and the US would have run some real inflation.

The world Central Bankers (and oil producers) took a real hit when this all happened and it won't be allowed again. They have supported the fiat dollar standard and even helped "pump it up". All in an effort to keep business rolling until a new currency could be created. One based on several economic national arenas, no dollar reserves and a world market price for gold. As opposed to the present IOU paper dollar gold system. Even though the Euro is born, this package is not complete, but it's getting there!

Truly, you have to have been around the turn a few times to understand that no one (and I mean NO one) is wanting a larger piece of the old dollar pie. The notion of currency parity for the purpose of trading up debt reserves is something being floated by the Washington think crew!

Are these nations trying to pay up for past US military action? Oh boy, not a chance. Why don't we pay Italy for all the good the Roman legions did for everyone!! No one is worried that the US will back away from protecting its interest after it's bankrupt. Whether it's oil or national security, they will act as best as able. See ORO's post about this, it's real good. Besides, look at Russia. No money, no nothing but still out there firing away!

Also: The present paper gold market depends on new hikers entering the gold trail towards its end. They buy paper gold as some kind of stock market / investment hedge without knowing the big picture. In the past their actions would have worked their purpose. But not in this transition. A currency exchange storm is going to sink a lot of these paper boats and kill the very assets many wanted to protect. Buy the gold not the price!

Thanks FOA"

FOA 12/29/99: "Our modern currency history (the last 20 years) has shown that the world needs both of these moneys [fiat and gold], but needs them in a different format from the past. Our present dollar could do the same but it carries the baggage of huge unpayable international and local debts. Debt made non payable by the dollar reserve system that forces the social needs of just one people upon the world using unbalanced, rigged exchange rates. It eliminates the escape route of a "free market" gold price and therefore locks down the ability of other nations to trade outside this system. Free the world of this system and a great deal of American wealth will be seen for what it really is, an illusion of bookkeeping. Indeed, create a workable reserve medium, based on world needs and wants in a settlement format and the race will be on to use your product… Especially if it "includes" the money the world has wanted for all its history. Gold!"

FOA 1/11/00: "The strong US economic success has been spelled out more in our SOL (Standard Of Living) than if expressed in financial accounts. Dollar exchange rates, interest on dollars, stock market values, home values all represent what an American "can buy" if they decide to spend their wealth. Not what they presently have as owned wealth, paid up 100%. This leveraging of dollar affairs has created an "illusion of savings" that in effect allowed a high SOL. In other words, we live high on the hog today because our present equity values and savings don't really exist. Time has transformed the entire dollar system into a giant "futures contract" that only represents the wealth we could obtain in partial "future purchases". Just like the gold market, we mostly trade paper wealth and call it real. Yet, if a large percentage demand for delivery ever happened, the contracts would fail. Yes, our wealth and economy status is really based on us cashing in and buying just a little at a time. If we didn't, the illusion would be exposed. Only our present dollar economy is "super leveraged" not just into the future of US goods production, rather it also completely depends on future foreign fulfilment to produce those real goods. Truly, most of our present sizeable financial wealth is little more than a function of the "acceptance of dollars overseas" by others."


Everybody loves the original, and that's what I'm here to promote. It can be found here, here and here, but this blog has become a Freegold archive in its own right, with 60,000 comments over the past six years, 433 posts, and now 7.2 million pageviews, an average of 3,300 per day. You'll notice that I have no advertising and I'm not selling anything, so if you like what you see and would like it to continue, please support this blog.

Sincerely,
FOFOA


376 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 376 of 376
Michael dV said...

RG the real question is how many small house will fit into an olympic sized swimming pool.

Dim said...

Hi all,

I have been looking at the TIC data http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfhhis01.txt and have noticed an interesting phenomena which as far as I’m aware has not been discussed here. If you plot the monthly For. Official holdings you will notice upward spikes in Jul 2011, Jul 2010, Jul 2009, Jul 2008, Jul 2007 etc. The TIC data shows every July there was a BIG selloff of Treasuries by the UK with a corresponding BIG buy in from several other countries (the buying countries differ at each spike but China is always one of them). Jul 2012, Jul 2013 and Jul 2014 were the first years where this did not occur and the UK has been sitting steady/slowly increasing.

The reason that this year had the first yoy negative month as per FOFOA’s recent articlehttp://fofoa.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/yoy-structural-support-now-negative.html is partially because there has been no spike in July for a while now (i.e. no major UK selloff with no corresponding and overcompensating buy in from other countries).

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

runninggloves said...

@dV
it couldnt have been said better
its like trying to measure length with a measuring stick that changes in length, it gets alot more difficult to know how long something is

so once freegold arrives what should debts be denominated in?
if freegold theory suggest debts should not be denominated in gold, what makes people not want to lend their gold out, gold lending has been around since the beginning of time. or it gets even more interesting when sovereigns borrow gold from subjects.

how does freegold reverse the phenomenon of capital consumption/destruction?

Bjorn said...

rg your volume calculation is fine.

What happens to me when I envision 8000 tonnes is that I automatically relate it to something with a density of 1 (like water). It then takes a mental effort to picture that gold takes up just 1/20 of that volume. In reality of course, pallets of gold take a little more space to store than a solid cube.
https://www.style-your-garage.com/en/Garage-poster/Motifs-for-single-garages/Other/Gold.html?listtype=search&searchparam=gold

(I think FOFOA used this picture somewhere far back in the past)

Sam said...

“so once freegold arrives what should debts be denominated in?”

Free floating currencies of course! That is currency’s most effective and efficient function. A medium of exchange to be traded and borrowed.

“what makes people not want to lend their gold out”

Well this is a mind bending question when you look at how our current system works. The secret to understanding the answer is to understand how the next system will be different. Currently the suppression of gold’s value “supports” the system. Lending gold really achieves nothing except to suppress the value of gold. It creates the illusion of plentitude for a finite resource as people willingly hold paper substitutes for the real thing. How much would “balloon dogs” be worth if there were 1000s of paper substitutes that people held and valued just like the real thing?

In the next system there will be zero benefit to suppressing the value of gold which means there would be nothing gained by lending your gold. When no benefit exists, you don’t have to make a law or a rule.

“gold lending has been around since the beginning of time”

Let’s say that’s a true statement. If gold was “money” then of course it was lent as that is what people inevitably do with money. If it was backing money then of course it was lent out because suppressing its value “supported” the system. However if it was just a wealth asset, like a fine painting, I doubt it was lent out. Why bother.

Michael dV said...

Probably the easiest way to think about gold in FG is to forget about it. FG is a fiat currency system albeit better managed due to some constraints. Think of gold as you would art work, a valuable asset but not one in which there is specific interest. Would you ask to borrow someone's Renoir? No, you'd ask to borrow currency. If you did borrow a piece of art and it was damaged you'd be expected to compensate the owner with cash, not with the valuable thing you borrowed.
Fofoa gave the example of a tractor factory that goes broke. settling that would demand any left over cash to be distributed. the idea that you would be able to a tractor from a defunct company would be impossible.

Jeff said...

The fourth Central Bank Gold agreement begins next week.

'The signatories note that, currently, they do not have any plans to sell significant amounts of gold'

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2014/html/pr140519.en.html

Happy anniversary.

Michael dV said...

Jeff I'm keeping that CBGA page handy to show those who doubt a role for gold in today's world.
It also could impress those in the 'the Fed and the ECB are just the same' crowd.

byiamBYoung said...

Clearly, they have no idea that physical demand is powerless to influence the (paper) price of gold:

"There’s no guarantee that this buying, encouraging as it seems, is anything more than a blip. But in the aggregate it does seem like a lot of buyers, old and new, are finding current prices to be attractive.

That’s how bottoms form and new bull markets begin."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-30/does-surging-demand-gold-silver-coins-signal-bottom

Dim said...

BYMB, I thought the same thing. ZH is always pushing that idea.

Although it was useful to see the figures for gold coin sales. Perth Mint sold ~40,000 ounces in coins and bars in a month. In a country with ~22 million people - wow not many people doing the 'spend in currency save in gold'.

runninggloves said...

alright then, finally, we did find an instance of freegold:

Bronze Age Mesopotamia
During the 3rd millennium BC, gold and silver were used primarily for decoration, ornamentation, and a store of wealth.

if it took 5000 years for wealth to transform into just a commodity; could it take like another couple thousand years before it regains its status as wealth?

if the lifecycle goes as
wealth -> money -> commodity for the past 5000 years
then to reverse the process
commodity -> wealth within 25 years starting year 2000
is that really probable

when loss of faith in fiat is the deal we can see
commodity -> money in the time being
but
to make that grand leap towards money -> wealth is possible thru who knows how many generations of humans.

unless somebody is suggesting skipping the process and going straight from
commodity -> wealth

a drastic shift in mindset by the public at large within less than half of human lifespan is questionable

meo fio said...

Gold keeps bouncing off the $1200 support, maybe someone is supporting the price of gold at its production cost.

Edwardo said...

byBY wrote:

Clearly, they have no idea that physical demand is powerless to influence the (paper) price of gold:

Physical demand from a buyer (or buyers) of size that is not met can lay waste to the paper market. And in the absence of some entity or entities dis-hoarding above ground stock in sufficient size to meet demand from giants, that is precisely what the market will face when global mine output is severely diminished due to the paper price falling well below production cost.

The reason shrimp demand for physical does not, in the main, present a threat to destroy the paper market is because shrimp demand doesn't tend to effect the conduits that exist to satisfy the upper tier of the market. However, physical demand from shrimps that persists into a severe collapse in global mine output will eventually stress the upper tier of the market to some greater or lesser degree.

After all, consider that the paper market was created in no small part to siphon off demand from shrimps who were negatively impacting the ability of giants to acquire physical.

ein anderer said...

@rg:

if the lifecycle goes as
wealth -> money -> commodity for the past 5000 years
then to reverse the process
commodity -> wealth within 25 years starting year 2000
is that really probable


Look how water behaves on a stove! Takes so long until it gets to 98 °C. And SUDDENLY the physical state turns from solid to gas.

Relevant is »where the rubber meets the road«, as FOFOA says. That means: Not the mind is relevant, but the physical delivery. If this music stops and if the market finds a Freegold price over night, and if the combined collaps of all these paper derivates will become the shock of the year: this impression of giant losses (on one side) and giant gains (of those who hold physical gold) will be BY ITSELF so intense, that this experience of us all will become an imprint in the human mind for many, many generations to come.

Think of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, but in a much, much broader sense (hopefully w/o so much losses of human life). Overwhelming! Erasing all this wrong paper thinking in one stroke! Overnight!

Water boiling, BTW, is not the single example for those paradigm shifts. There were many social incidents too, which behaved like such an »waterfall«. Yesterday the world was like this. Today the world (view) has changed. Forever.

Sam said...

“a drastic shift in mindset by the public at large within less than half of human lifespan is questionable”

If I showed a painting to “the public” and asked them what it was worth to them what do you think they would say? “$50.” “$100.” Suppose it’s a really beautiful painting, most people would perceive some type of value but it would vary from person to person. It’s nice to look at, makes me happy, goes great with my drapes, ect. Ect. The only thing all of their answers would have in common is that they would not matter one bit.

What really matters is that if there is some group of elites in the world that valued that particular painting at several million dollars. Let’s call that group of elites “super producers” for short. Then all of a sudden you will realize something amazing. Number one is the public mindset about the painting’s value didn’t seem to damage its worth to the super producers at all, and number two, as soon as it is revealed, the public’s mindset seemed to instantly change to match the super producers mindset. A few rogues can argue until they are blue in the face that the painting isn’t worth a penny over a thousand bucks, that those rich fools have more money than sense, its just paint and canvass and crooked lines, ect. Ect. In the end all their logic and reasoning would be mute. The paintings would be appraised, evaluated, rated, stored, insured, and tagged at millions of dollars a piece. The value would be well documented and anyone who suggested the value was anything less would be misinformed.

Most of us that follow this blog aren’t activists trying to change the public’s mindset. We also aren’t waiting for a change in public’s mindset. If the public mindset has anything to do with the coming of a freegold transition I wouldn’t bother buying an ounce

Reality Show said...

Fine analogy Sam.

Desormais said...

Were there any comments on this analysis of Freegold ?

http://216.194.168.36/~goldst21/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/TheGoldStandardJournal30.pdf

If there were, could someone with a better memory than me direct me to them.

Thanks

ein anderer said...

Sam, well put!
BTW: Indians are celebrating today their old vedic Victory Day (Vijaya Dashami). Papergold saw a dramatic decline of almost 30 USD/oz so far. Now below 1'200. Heading towards a new 4-years-loqw. Nice coincidence …

westcoast2 said...

"SUDDENLY the physical state turns from solid to gas"

There is of course latent heat where, prior to the sudden state change, a lot of energy goes in yet not much seems to be happening.

Xcsler said...

Structural Support Update
TIC Data Source:
http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfhhis01.txt

YOY Change in Total for Foreign Official Holders
Jan 2014 - Jan 2013 = +19.1
Feb 2014 - Feb 2013 = -31.1
Mar 14 - Mar 13 = -40
Apr 14 - Apr 13 = -12.5
May 14 - May 13 = +16.3
June 14 - Jun 13 = +96
July 14 - Jun 13 = +115.6

I believe these calculations are correct but would appreciate a double check.

Sam said...

@Xcsler

Your math looks right. I’m not sure YOY “updates” are telling of very much though. It was historically significant when FOFOA pointed it out as it hadn’t happened for such a long time. YOY is/was more interesting than the overreaction some would give to monthly gyrations so I appreciated it for that reason too when he wrote the post. However, at this point if you really look at the raw data in 2013 you can see why updates at this point would mislead rather than inform. In foreign holdings you have the continuation of the uptrend at the beginning of 2013, followed by a big tumble in the middle, followed by a correction and then a leveling out toward the end. In 2014 we have been relatively flat. That means a monthly year over year comparison is going to statistically look like there has been a reversal or continuation of structural support in the middle months (like July) as compared to the early and latter months.

runninggloves said...

when george soros called gold the ultimate bubble

and frank guistra called it the mother of all bubbles

maybe thats a reference to freegold?

farmersteveg said...

Sam

Of course, in addition, appears FOFOA has suspicions regarding the huge increase in "Belgium" offical support. If you back that out, changes things drastically regarding "official" support. In short, at this stage its gonna be difficult to really know whats goin on.

Reality Show said...

Rob, that paper does not contain an analysis of Freegold, but rather a goldbug's fundamental misunderstanding of some wiki entry on the subject. Apparently Freegold is best understood as a path to the Gold Standard. Funny.

vizeet srivastava said...

meo fio,

Not necessary. First time it went below 1200 GOFO went negative and market thought it is starting on gold price rise. Second time it went below 1200 there was again rumor that this is start of gold bull run. Before this fall it remained stable for few months as inflation was rising which gave upward push to gold. But as employment is positive, market is expecting interest hike and oil price is falling dollar is becoming stronger and as a result gold is falling again. But this time there is news that gold mines may shut and so market is expecting shortage which may push gold again for short time.
But quantum of sentiment towards gold is in gradual on the decline. So it doesn't appear that there is any official support as of now.

Motley Fool said...

Rob

I don't recall having seen it before.

I read it quickly. It was based on the wiki entry that has since been deleted, and was hugely flawed. To reply would mean I would need to correct all the mistakes in the wiki entry, and then see what remains. That seems like a lot of effort. Did you have a specific query?

I note the author is an adherent of the real bills doctrine. As a former member of that group and fwiw, I can mention that that theory has as biggest flaw that it ignores humanity as an input. That makes it nice in theory, but much as the current dominant doctrine, which does likewise, flawed in practice.

TF

Sam said...

@farmersteve

Good point. We also need to remember that not all foreign support represents the structural support we are interested in.

Dim said...

RG,

Please read this:

http://fofoa.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/gold-ultimate-un-bubble.html?m=1

Keep reading!

Michael dV said...

Rob
That was a Weiner article and he does understand freegold.
He is harping for the people to shout until the leaders give them harder money....which has never happened in human except right after hyper inflation...and then only until the next debt payment came due.
He want a return to the good old gold standard or at least to 'honest money. I think fofoa did an article with that name...hmmm...yep.

Desormais said...

Hi MF and MdV,

I have been involved with Gold for at least 10 years now, but a lot of the inconsistencies I saw didn't make sense until I found Freegold, around 18 months ago.
I work in Science, so like to use the Freegold concept as a hypothesis, to be constantly tested to see if it has flaws. I was interested in some of the more experienced Freegolders kicking the Gold Standard Institute article to death.

If I take the position that everyone is smarter than I am, then I like to get the opinions of those smarter than myself and who can articulate. Working with Scientists all day, my BS detector is pretty good.
I emailed John Swinney before the referendum about Freegold and got a holding email from his office to say that they will look at it.
I've recently emailed Professor Catherine Schenk about Freegold too.
She has this on BIS.
http://www.bis.org/publ/work444.pdf
but also this, which is not on BIS.
http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/field/field_document/0212gt_schenk1.pdf

I'd like the academic economists to tell me why Freegold is bollocks and the experienced Freegolders to tell me why the academics are talking bollocks.

Thanks,

Rob

JJ said...

I have a few questions to this community:

Am I thinking wrong when I see this strength in US$ as something that Exters Pyramid explains clearly?

Draghi is to buy debt with 1 trillion €. Would it not solve more problems if he just used that trillion to buy gold?

Any comments appreciated!

runninggloves said...

Alright then,
So how much metal are we talking about if one wants to buy a house in LA after this fiasco is said and done? I'm thinking ballpark 25oz near city center maybe in the teens for a bit less desirable areas.
I would posit that suburban homes would go for alot less since energy for transport would be alot more expensive for the populace.
2 oz for a car, make that 3 for alot more bells and whistles?

Jeff said...

JJ,

Draghi must thread the needle; do enough but not so much as to blow up the $IMF in a clearly hostile act, such as bidding for gold in the open market.

FOFOA: Europe is now living under a new currency, but it is still functioning under the dollar's global financial system that encourages infinite debt accumulation, infinite growth of imbalances, and financial trickery to pretend the system is stable and extend its timeline.

All the benefits and architectural innovations of the ECB stand in place now as a kind of safety net for the Eurozone for whenever the $IMFS collapses under its own weight. And the signs of this happening sometime soon are ominous and many.

Devaluations always happen by necessity. They can be triggered either intentionally internally, intentionally externally or unintentionally naturally. They happen because they are ultimately necessary to both parties and to nature itself. But the party that feels the pressure most, enough to trigger the devaluation first tends to profit the most from it...

The hyperinflation of the dollar is already a done deal. It has been since the 90's at least. Massive quantities of perceived dollars already exist stored in debt held globally and inside the US. Europe knows this. They have known this was inevitable since at least the mid-90's when they changed plans and went with higher gold reserves for the new ECB. They have always been willing to wait for it to happen naturally, unless the EU itself faces an existential threat from debt brought on by the $IMFS.

Jeff said...

Friends don't crash friends' monetary systems, but they don't have to support them, either.

FOA: As most of you will no doubt agree, almost all gold discussion still centers around "the dollar's war with gold". Truly, the evolution of this story will be how that war ended then and now the dollar's war with the Euro began! A very large part of that war strategy, employed by the ECB/BIS, was to let the dollar/IMF faction hang themselves by expanding and supporting the whole arena of this dollar paper gold market. Inflating the gold marketplace with so much "paper gold" that we would eventually have to bankrupt ourselves just to keep the dollar in the war game against the Euro.

[…]

At the right time the Euro Zone will withdraw from the IMF, leaving the US and its factions as the only support for dollar credit assets held overseas. Then the evolution of SDR use our guide knows so well will be complete. This will leave the SDR interpretation open to only one avenue to finding support: its basket currency function dissolved, gold will have to flow from American based [gold stockpiles]. With most of the present official credit gold leverage built upon IMF protocols, the US will find itself shipping ever higher priced gold to defend an ever lower valuation of dollar exchange rates.

As this reserve currency transition, or perhaps war is a better term, moves on; the ECB must shift it's thrust with a leadership statement. Wim Duisenberg provided an excellent political cover for selling into the American paper gold market; as it exists around the world today. His national pedigree demonstrated a distinct flavor against gold as a monetary reserve. Truly, the ECB could not be seen prompting all their big bullion banks to short American paper gold, if they ECB / BIS were serious gold advocates. In our time of Western thinking, who could understand such a contradiction? But, politically, the game was to serve two goals; temporally support the dollar for trade settlement until the Euro was on its feet (sending gold prices down); and inflating the American led gold market until it burst from over issuance. A good chunck of this ties into the SDR issue that I'll get to later...

Michael dV said...

Jeff
very nice..

RG, I'm guessing you are ballpark right. One issue that I have not resolved is how much better off gold holders in the USA will be compared to other people. If gold has the purchasing power of $55k (2009 dollars) per ounce but no one else has anything...who knows how far buying while there is blood in the streets will get one.
Imports like Mercedes may have a fixed price but what about the Mercedes the lawyer down the block has to sell? Maybe the ounce will go much further. The only ways for the government to get a new currency circulating will be to lend it (perhaps to local governments), give it away (entitlements) and buy stuff (gold perhaps). There could be a time when some people are very anxious to get their hands on currency and gold holders will be welcome buyers of a new currency. Once you get those new dollars you'll be like those closest to the outflow of cash now (like the commercial banks). It will spend better for you then than it does a year later when lots of folks have some.
Who knows, much speculation but thats how I'm seeing it for now.

Robert said...

Very interesting essay from Michael Pettis went up a couple of days ago:

http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/10/are-we-starting-to-see-why-its-really-the-exorbitant-burden/

The article touches on many of the topics discussed here, particularly the need for a better mechanism to balance trade flows, Triffin's dilemma, and the costs and benefits of exorbitant privilege. Although Pettis does not endorse the freegold view, he notes that things are changing about the way the world sees reserve currencies. An interesting snippet:

"Conditions have changed however, and the potentially destabilizing effect is no longer so distant. In a recent essay I tried to show that if we have not already reached the point at which the dominant reserve currency status of the US dollar is harmful to the US and potentially destabilizing to the world, logically we will inevitably reach that point, and probably soon."

Robert said...

Who would benefit from freegold ... and might play an active role in bringing it about?

Obviously individuals who hold physical gold would benefit, but we learn from this blog that the giants think like giants and not like shrimp, meaning that giants are prepared for every scenario and are not trying to grow wealthier by betting on the timing of any revaluation.

Companies? Hedge funds? Pension funds? They are more likely to hold gold in paper form rather than in physical, to the extent they hold a "gold" position at all.

Countries? We always hear about China and Russia, probably because of the spillover from politics because they are perceived as rivals on the international stage. But how about these countries: Italy, France, Japan, Portugal, Turkey, Venezuela, Spain and Greece. What do they have in common? Crappy economies, right? Italy is doomed. France is doomed. They are about to take down the EU. Greece and Portugal? The worst of the EU periphery. Japan? A failed experiment in perpetual QE. Venezuela? Don't get me started.

What else do these countries have in common? Gold reserves! Based on the published statistics, Italy and France are #4 and #5. Tiny Portugal ranks #14. Although Greece is way down the list at #33, more than 80% of its reserves are in gold.

It seems to me that all of these countries would be a lot better off if they threw off the debt shackles and embraced a revaluation. But all except Venezuela are American puppets, or, more precisely, Goldman Sachs puppets. Would any of these countries take any action that might trigger an avalanche? I am thinking "Probably not." The people who control the levers of power benefit greatly from the current arrangement ... as long as it lasts.

So if individuals, entities, and countries refuse to rock the boat, we wait and wait and wait . . . .

Sam said...

@Robert

Don't need to rock the boat when it has a hole in the bottom.

runninggloves said...

if we are certain this farce cannot continue for another 10 years
has anybody consider using cards with 3% balance transfer fee and 0% apr for 18 months to leverage metal? if performed and rolled over 7 times then someone can pretty much hold leverage metal for 10 years and pay a 25% rental fee which is derived from 1.03^7-1. seems pretty cheap isnt it? assumption is CBs cannot raise rates thus other interest rates will not rise much. beside if CBs at the lower bound and cannot raise rates without causing mayhem. is this a no brainer?

if you folks see holes please comment

Robert said...

Lots of holes. Here is the most obvious: "If we are certain this farce cannot continue for another 10 years". Here is another: "assumption is CBs cannot raise rates". Here is another "if performed and rolled over 7 times" - how do you know this option will be offered consistently 10 years into the future?

For someone who sees a revaluation as highly likely, the better approach would be to become a dealer. Hold a lot of physical in inventory, hedge with paper to the extent necessary, and be the one left holding all the physical when the music stops. If things work well, you can use the revenues from the business to help build up the inventory and avoid the "25% rental fee"

What is everyone's greatest fear? Being stuck with a promise rather than physical. The corollary of that, if you believe that a revaluation is certain, is to get on the other side of that trade.

Testing said...

I know you don´t like these guys, but here´s a comment I read on KWN:
“Oil consumption has dropped in the West but it has increased dramatically in the East. China is consuming more oil and this is benefitting Saudi Arabia. And, importantly, soon they will begin to trade that oil to China in yuan, not dollars.”
Can someone confirm this? I didn´t expect the Saudis to make a move like this. It´s a direct blow to USD “structural support”, isn´t it?

Franco said...

The trader's mentality is strong with this one.

Michael dV said...

Patience..as Tom Petty said: The Waiting....

runninggloves said...

@robert
how is it being a dealer?

lets put it this way, im not sure if anyone wants this to end next month, if once expect revaluation, they would want to have the time to acquire enough of that metal.

how much metal is enough metal?
measured in what? % of assets? months of income?

but lets say if it really happens say 2020 that means....
anybody who starts acquiring @ 1 oz per month would still be in pretty good shape .....

although 2020 seems like stretching it

Testing said...

@ Franco: if your comment was directed at me, you couldn´t be more wrong, and let´s just leave it at that. Just for the sake of it, specifically what part of my comment refers to "trader´s mentality"? Lastly, could you please answer the two questions I posted? Anyone care to comment?
If it wasn´t directed at me, please accept my apologies. :)

Unknown said...

I'm a believer that gold will eventually be set free sooner or later. However, I've become uncertain after reading this article.

http://bit.ly/1v4GcwU

I thought gold would be set free if it were included in the SDR. However, I neglected to take into consideration that bankers don't like gold. If SDR would replace the dollar as the reserve currency, gold may only be included symbolically in the basket as its price goes down in nominal value. No matter who is running the show, the fed, IMF, BIS or the World Bank, bankers will not likely set gold free.

I really got to think about this one. Any comment is appreciated.

Michael dV said...

Testing...I'm not reading Franco's comment as being directed at you but with moderated comments it can come out pretty strange.
I think we'd be better off with directing comments. Otherwise it weirdness can happen.

Jeff said...

Should I google 'FOFOA SDR'? Or should I burst in breathless with a new idea no one has ever considered before, like a noob? 'Hey guys, what about SDR!?! This changes everything!'

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2013/10/special-drawing-rights.html

M said...

Finlands President was on Hardtalk on BBC. I just wanted to here his take on economics before I switched the channel. He made it clear and said that he doesn't believe in Keynsianism and neither does his colleagues in Brussels. He said that it's ultimately up to te private sector to create growth.

Unknown said...

@Jeff,

Thanks for the quick response. I think fiat currency without freegold in the form of SDR would happen if the transition is gradual and with the cooperation of the US. It would work for about 10 to 20 years and then it would have the same problem facing euro now.

FOFOA is right. Free floating gold is the only solution but the bankers hate it. I believe the bankers would allow freegold only if the transition were forced upon the US.

Sam said...

and then the day will come when I say to myself....Why did I think bankers hated gold when so many of them were holding it?

Sam said...

@Testing

Almost everything I see in the news, when viewed through the freegold lens, makes sense. That's probably why I'm a supporter of FOFOA's work. If things were blurry or confusing I would need a different lens to help explain what I see.

So to answer your questions above I would say yes the move by China and Saudi Arabia would be part of the slow and deliberate move towards freegold. China is continuing to make currency deals and agreements designed to make their currency increasingly more liquid and exchangeable. These steps are all taken with the intention of one day achieving full conversion on the free market. They are preparing for the free floating exchange rate regime.

Dr, Boer said...

Wait for coming weekend, Sat/Sun Oct 11/12. Two more days if I'm well informed.

Testing said...

@ MdV: I agree with you. Conversations can be confusing if we are "cross-chatting" with several of us at the same time. That´s why I left to interpretation Franco´s comment. No need to take offense if you are not 100 % sure.

Unknown said...

@ Sam,
Why do bankers hate gold when so many of them were holding it?
I think they hate gold because they cannot print gold out of thin air like they can with fiat. They hold gold because they all know gold is real money.
The Chinese and IMF will use freegold to force the US to give up the reserve status but I think they would rather have SDR which is more flexible and printable versus a gold back currency.
So, as a defense it would be helpful if the bankers had a valuable asset that was diversified out of the dollar in case the dollar crashed.
As an offensive weapon it gives your currency a modicum of respect above and beyond typical fiat. It means only one thing, to undermine the dollar's overwhelming control over the worlds trade and as a secondary bonus to weaken the ability of the United States to wage war by curtailing the dollars power.

Biju said...

Did any of you see(nowadays who hears!!) the news about SWIFT rejecting US demand to cut off Russia from SWIFT systems. How arrogant those EU pricks !!!! (just joking).
highly troubling !!

Apparently they want permission from EU to do that. As a person residing in USA, I find this shocking. What will SWIFT do if USA cuts off from SWIFT, the whole world will die.

Testing said...

@ Sam: Yes, but is this confirmed? One thing is to speculate about this and another is to watch the US do nothing when it happens. Thru the freegold lens, "dollar ex-priv"+Saudis+oil are the three pilars of today´s $IMFS. That´s two out of three boys...... I would assume that this kind of news would get more attention.
Besides, I must confess I am a little sceptic about freegold (or similar) actually being implemented worldwide anytime soon. Freegold would mean a more fair, compensated and balanced world, and we all know the world is not like that. It will probably be forced to a new unbalance in some other way to keep the same countries/powers controlling the situation for a pretty long time. Just a personal opinion.

Sam said...

Hi Judie

One of FOFOA’s more eye opening pieces of work is a post called Moneyness. I recommend it if you want to read a real good old FOFOA post that will no doubt change your definition of the word “money.” It certainly changed mine. With that foundation a lot of this other stuff falls into place.

Also, just a quick note as you continue to explore this blog. Freegold might have gold in the name but it’s really about getting gold out of the monetary system and allowing it to float freely as a wealth asset for savers. A monetary system that doesn’t try and compete with gold will be the best monetary system of all. It’s not about backing a currency or using gold as money. You are right bankers would hate that and so would I. What a terrible use for something as precious as gold!

Unknown said...

@Sam,

I thought freegold is physical gold free from the molestation of COMEX's paper scheme which as you stated "allow to float freely in the FX market. If that happened, it would naturally be used to settle long term trade imbalance, dollar would no longer be needed to settle trade.

However, I think the Chinese would rather have the RMB to be a portion of a new reserve currency, SDR, rather than the reserve currency to avoid the burden of the Triffin Dilemma. It would be more flexible (for manipulation) to peg RMB to SDR than to freegold.

If the US rejected the IMF's quota reforms, the Chinese is prepared to set gold free with the Shanghai Gold Exchange.

Unknown said...

When I said bankers hate gold. I meant bankers in the US hate gold. I suspect Chinese and European bankers are using gold to challenge the dollar reserve status.

If the US concede to the IMF quota reforms and cooperate in the transition of making SDR the new reserve currency, then these bankers will all join together to continue the hate or suppression of freegold.

Steve said...

@Dr. Boer
Care to elaborate?

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

@PS,
No currency peg to "freegold". Yes, it's obvious that you are correct. I didn't think it through when I wrote that. Volatility in the spot price will destroy any currency peg to freegold.
Do I really sound like I haven't read a single article on this blog? Lol. Well, the truth is that I've been reading this blog since last summer. For an outsider, I have to research the meaning of IMF, BIS, FX, etc. - I didn't even know the fed is not part of the federal government until maybe 2 or 3 years ago, I'm lucky if I grasped half of the meaning after reading the same article twice before it start looking like Chinese.
Thanks for the advice, maybe I'll try one article every other week.

Anonymous said...

@judie,testing

Another:
"From the day of our birth we are taught to value all things using the one factor alone, currency!
Can one contemplate the value of all possessions in other terms? Do you not have to think first as
to "how many dollars is that worth" then "how many dollars is this worth" to compare two items?
If it is deep within our mind, that we can know value only in terms of paper, to this I ask, can one know value at all!
The Western mind does focus on "what I buy today for the lowest price". Yet, in this modern world economy, the lowest price is always the function of "the currency exchange rate"? The Yen, it is compared to the dollar today, and used to purchase goods. One year later and the Japan offers
these goods for much less, as the Yen has fallen to the US$. The currency value of this purchase,
was it "true " today or a year ago? Understand, all value judgments today are as subject to
"exchange rate competition"!
It is in "this exchange rate valuations" that the private citizen does denominate all net worth! A safe way to hold the wealth for your future, yes? You should ask a Korean or an Indonesian?
One should grasp that "today, your wealth, is not what your currency say it is"!
In this world, paper currency is for trade, only!
[and so are SDR's!]
It is for the buying, selling, earning and paying, not for knowing the value of your family holdings!

Know this, "the printers of paper do never tell the owner that the money has less value, that judgment is reserved for the person you offer that currency to!
Again, I ask, how can we know a true value for our assets, when they are known only in currency
that finds it's worth, as in the exchange rate for another currency?
Many will "think long and hard on this", but will find little reason for this position. For it is in your
history to know only "things valued in paper terms". Some say, "I hold investments of great increase these past years, and am much ahead of the inflation, if it should come".
I say, your investments, worldwide, have moved little, as it has been the currencies that denominate your
assets, that fall a great deal. The price inflation that comes, it is larger than your vision can see!
Your past, holds little of knowing value outside of currencies, this does block the good view!"

Unknown said...

* China currency push takes aim at dollar

"The decision on a new SDR structure, to be made in the next 15 months, will influence how China and its currency can play a bigger part in driving world trade, investment and capital flows. The renminbi could eventually challenge the dollar and its pivotal position in world money — which is why the U.S. government and Federal Reserve are examining this with intense interest."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/10/07/china-currency-push/16852193/

* Largarde says she’ll belly dance if Congress passes IMF reform

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story?guid=b8f73794-4fee-11e4-b40b-968577227f25

I guess one way or another, China will challenge the dollar with either the SDR or freegold.

Indenture said...

Judie: "However, I think the Chinese would rather have the RMB to be a portion of a new reserve currency, SDR, rather than the reserve currency to avoid the burden of the Triffin Dilemma."

There is another choice. We could have a world without a Reserve Currency!

Edwardo said...

Largarde says she’ll belly dance if Congress passes IMF reform

Doing her part to insure that it doesn't pass.

runninggloves said...

if the fed is buying all these mortgages; one has to wonder if they are trying to pull a rentenmark. not saying that it would work, but atleast they can try

Unknown said...

@Indenture,
Gold will be the reserve currency by default in a world without a fiat reserve currency. FOFOA is right, freegold is the only long term solution to settle long term trade imbalances. However, I believe the transition to freegold will meet a lot more resistance than another fiat reserve currency.
I often wonder how much gold do we really have in Ft. Knox. If we don't have as much as stated or it's rehypothecated with multiple ownerships. The Chinese have a legitimate reason to worry that the US may start WWIII to avoid a bankruptcy in a world of gold reserve currency.
I think they prefer a gradual transition rather than an abrupt transition. Gold as a reserve currency will meet resistances not only from the US but any nation which hasn't make preparation to built up a gold reserve. Having the RMB to be included in the SDR will give them a foothold toward economic dominance in the "Magic Circle" club.
If the US congress approved the IMF's reforms, the Chinese expect the dollar would lose its exceptional privilege gradually as the RMB gain more influence within the SDR. That is not an unreasonable expectation since the Chinese economy has already surpassed Japan and the US.
If the US didn't want to see Largarde belly dance, the Chinese have already made preparation to set gold free with the accumulation of at least 4000 tons of clean, non-rehypothecated gold. The Shanghia Gold Exchange can easily set freegold in motion.

MSC said...

@ Dr Boer,
Maybe you are unable to elaborate but I find your comment intriguing as I too am expecting something significant to come out around the time the markets re-open on Sunday. I don't have inside info, but the markets certainly appear to have been primed for something.

ein anderer said...

One of the FG scenarios includes a preceding decline of PoG, until the moment when gold (phys.) is hiding.

I am sure some of the readers has a clearer view about the timing of this period »in between«: How long, do you think, can this period last? Days? Weeks? Months?

And I am sure too that some of the readers have a clearer vision than me about the possible length ot the period, in which the PoG is declining from the 1'200 US-$ to, say 500 or even 200 US-$.

Thanks for any enlightening hint.

Ken_C said...

Ein Anderer - we have already had a decline from 1900 to 1200. Perhaps that is the decline necessary to set things in motion. Who knows? Not I.

Anand Srivastava said...

@Jodie:

Gold will be the reserve currency

You need to RRTFB and contemplate some more. Anybody who has understood the blog will not use Gold anywhere near Currency. Gold is money for sure, but the thesis of FOFOA is that its no good for Currency. Currency aka the preferred UoA must be created and destroyed at will. Without that it could not function well as a UoA. Gold is best seen as a Wealth Storage Medium, aka SoV, held by everybody for the long haul, not as part of the monetary system.

So in FreeGold, Gold will be the Premier Reserve Asset for the Central Banks, to be used only as a last resort. Normal Banks should not and will not care for Gold. If you look around you, most of the world is functioning like this, except for the Gold Price Manipulation via the existence of Paper gold.

To usher into FreeGold, the only thing that needs to happen is that Paper Gold must implode. Its not that difficult either, no big things need to be done. Nobody (the PTBs) is even trying to keep the Paper Gold alive by keeping the price up.

The only thing keeping the system alive is the stupidity of the Gold Bugs :-). They keep on investing into paper gold, thinking of making some quick buck. If they really were intelligent they would buy the physical at present cheap prices, and that would implode the Paper Gold market, and cause the system to collapse.

What we really need is Barrick Gold or some other Gold Mining Giant to go out of business due to losses, and the system will start to collapse. How long that will take is not certain, but I would think if the price went below 1000$, and stayed there for a few months it would happen. I think Barrick in particular is already in trouble. But when they will throw in the towel is yet to be seen. It could happen on any fine day.

Sam: I still don't know much about Foreign Exchange, but I guess I can understand better now where it is all going :-).

Franco said...

"Wait for coming weekend, Sat/Sun Oct 11/12. Two more days if I'm well informed."

Not too well informed, I guess.

Sam said...

The average person can choose to under consume and save their excess or choose to over consume and borrow. Eventually savers will spend their savings and borrowers will have to work off their debts. Savers can also just save up until they die and borrows can default. A good monetary system should be built around these natural human tendencies to maximize the prosperity for all. If you cater towards one group because you think they are better than the other group you will have eventual conflict and failure. All monetary systems in recent history have pitted these two groups against each other to where if one group is winning the other is losing. Separating the means of savings from the means of borrowing will alleviate the conflict between the two groups of savers and debtors because one can win without the other losing.

Now on to currency blocs. This is a slightly different game because of the dynamic of being able to issue currency. Currency blocs will never choose to save. They want to get as many goods and services for their populace in trade as possible. They will have reserves to protect the value of their currency in a crisis but beyond this emergency stash further accumulation is bad business. In a perfect world each zone would produce and consume an equal amount. But since we don’t live in a perfect world there will be a little bit of imbalance. No issue. They can balance things out with the value of our credit with one another. AKA the foreign exchange value of their currencies. This is efficient and fast. This is balanced without forced savings in unnecessary excess gold. This completely severs the link of gold to the monetary system setting it free to play its ultimate role.

For some it’s easier to imagine balancing trade between foreign currency blocs with gold. If one zone is short the other zone makes up for the imbalance with gold. This sort of settlement would keep fiat currencies more constant while fluxing the value of gold up and down within different currency zones. Theoretically this would eventually balance trade as one zone loses more and more gold and one gets engorged with the stuff, incentives rise for savers to dishoard and incentives rise for borrowers to save and the pendulum swings back towards balance. This is folly. It’s taking individual trade practices and applying them to currency blocs; it ignores the dynamic created by being an issuer of currency, and forces the dynamic of saving in gold (vs letting it be a choice as it must be) for the virtuous goal of balanced trade. A goal that is achieved in a much simpler, faster, cleaner way without shipping gold back and forth. Floating exchange rates.

Edwardo said...

Anand wrote:

So in FreeGold, Gold will be the Premier Reserve Asset for the Central Banks, to be used only as a last resort.

It already is that which you describe since the vast majority of CBs or national monetary authorities carry it and have since their inception. The difference is that now gold is seldom if ever mentioned except in hushed tones and we have paper gold derivatives. In future there will be no need to whisper gold's name and paper derivatives of gold will be an artificact of history.

My view about what continues to keep paper gold extant is more or less the same as yours, a kind of inertia that is the result of some contingent of small time paper players, some of whom are no doubt gold bugs, acting in a manner that screams that they have not received the proverbial memo.

One Bad Adder said...

Paper-Gold and the alt-currencies have been hip-jointed lately Ref: http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$ONE:$USD&p=D&yr=0&mn=6&dy=0&id=p14522796477 which is a reflection on the strengthening DX complex. It's getting hot in the kitchen and any 'ol day now we could bear (pun intended) witness to the mother of all Deflationary episodes.
Here 'n Now looms large: http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$IRX&p=D&b=5&g=0&id=p73458434997

ein anderer said...

Thanks, Phil! Let’s see when it is coming! ;)

One Bad Adder said...

Nothing more graphically represents the importance of TIME in the mix than this Ratio Chart: http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$TYX:$IRX&p=W&b=5&g=0&id=p37893613417
Way back when TIME was of little consequence (c1990's), this ratio rarely if ever got above 5!
Currently persistently north of (name your figure) ...and destined to go to infinity at Zero ($IRX Yield) ...
...and TIME (monetarily at least) will cease to exist.

runninggloves said...

about the issue with US budget deficit > trade deficit.

converting pension/401k/ira into sovereign debt
or
tweaking social security

is definitely one of the curve balls that central planners can pull off for at least awhile

another thing under freegold
how does USG continue its lifestyle? who expects them to give it up?

Delusional Investing said...

A brilliant comment, as per usual Sam.

KnallGold said...

"how does USG continue its lifestyle?" KG: probably not. "who expects them to give it up? " KG: EO is given, not taken. And having seen so many reducing their lifestyle in row-countries the last years, as a result of the crisis, I'd say there's a broad consensus.

And lastly, to make a nice tangent on one of ea's posts: "Look how water behaves on a stove! Takes so long until it gets to 98 °C. And SUDDENLY the physical state turns from solid to gas. "

But you might know the phenomenon of superheating where you can actually heat water well above 100°C, without boiling. It can remain there for quite some time but seeding with a crystal, gasbubble or scratching initiates evaporation explosively.

We know it well in the lab, heating at bp and watching, and nothing happens. Often, when you just turned away attention, it made that poof! and spilled over. Maybe from there is the the saying coming "a watched pot never boils"...

How do you know if the currency system is not already in superheating mode?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpDs7Xm1uLo

DASK said...

Echoing the thanks for your input Sam. One of the best features of this blog are the people who really grok it and can rehash it in a way that helps expand my understanding.

Unknown said...

In a debt based system, debt is saved at all costs, and debtors are "propped up" by the abandonment of normal risk factors. Defaulting debt is simply bailed out with more debt (as long as confidence and support prevail).

In an equity based system, savers are not so much "artficially propped up" but rather the normal reality of virtue being it's own reward (industry, thrift, entrepreneurship) is restored.
It will be refreshing to see failure, profligacy and the inability to be self-sufficient or productive run its natural course.
We have not realistically seen a "natural course" of events in our world for quite some while. I hardly remember what it feels like, and wonder if I should live so long as to see it once again.

Marco Polo said...

What was supposed to happen over the weekend?

Baffled...............

@Dr Boer: you cannot come here, make a mysterious comment, allude to some great event, then ask us to take you seriously in the future unless you elaborate.

Motley Fool said...

Sam

I do want to provide slight clarity, as per my view, on your excellent contribution.

"A goal that is achieved in a much simpler, faster, cleaner way without shipping gold back and forth. Floating exchange rates."

Technically in both cases of currencies fixed to gold or freegold, gold flows across borders to settle trade imbalances. The difference I see is that the former is managed at the central bank level, which is inefficient and may conflict with their other goals as you mentioned, whereas under freegold the flow is from private hands and is a spontaneous and natural balance mechanism.

TF

Unknown said...

Oil is plummeting in price.

What does that mean for freegold?

Eric C said...

TF,

I think that is an excellent point.

runninggloves said...

so does that mean welfare states are done across the world once freegold arrives?

runninggloves said...

does FG also mean liberating savers from debtors?

Dim said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sam said...

@TF

Well said and I agree 100%.

M said...

Welcome back Wil

Dr, Boer said...

Dear Marco,
My mysterious comment comes from a source I have learned to trust. On Oct 2nd, the source dropped me a line "ten more days" = Oct 11. It was intended as a reassurance. Early Oct was a period of declining PoG. My interpretation was that the period of decline would be over by the weekend. I bring the comment in the forum because I would like to see it tested. Like so many of us, I am eagerly monitoring the PoG. Impossible to predict the bottom? Let’s see.
All the best.

Marco Polo said...

Swiss National Bank terrified of Swiss people getting their way......

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/173590/swiss-fight-to-block-public-gold-vote.html

Hahahahaha!

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
runninggloves said...

will there be regional freegold before it becomes global?

when JGBs go bust, the japanese might become indians.
when real estate in china goes bust, the chinese will become indians. thus completing a regional freegold implementation.

as far as westerners becoming indians and taking on freegold..... doesnt that require a higher savings rate?
but is a higher savings rate just a manifestation of higher production rates?

looking at india one has to wonder if lost of confidence is absolute or relative? if confidence was low to begin with can confidence really be lost? in other words if savings is not held in government paper, like in freegold or india, government cant count on the printing and printing more is going to be futile anyways, thus hyperinflation being almost impossible

Jeff said...

Blondie: If Freegold occurs, it occurs everywhere or nowhere.

There are no other options. If a bid is made, the exchange rate cannot be legislated against. Arbitrage ensures it is a global market. Any region trying to stop the process would experience capital flight on a ridiculous scale.

Indenture said...

"as far as westerners becoming indians and taking on freegold..... doesnt that require a higher savings rate?"
Freegold is not "taken on" it is a manifestation of an already present solution to the problem of Triffin's Dilemma. Nothing is required of Americans who will either save in physical gold or continue to invest in paper products. The difference between saving and investing will be clear after transition.

runninggloves said...

ok so you mean when that day comes:
enough purchasing power from the east will pour into the physical metal. if the west can engineer a collapse in china and india to reduce gold demand , that might buy some more time.
so who expects freegold to come out from the west?

going by the people we see in the west less than 5% of population hold bullion and most retirement accounts are stuck in the paper realm. so shrimps in the west are probably not in for this ride.

Motley Fool said...

Runninggloves

"does FG also mean liberating savers from debtors?"

Yes. :)

Motley Fool said...

Ps. It also liberates debtors from savers.

It ends the conflict between then camps.

Marco Polo said...

Antal Fekete on Kaiser report.

http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/196188-clown-terror-european-depression/

Simplistic and jingoistic but I suppose this is the way it needs to be put to attract mass attention. Pity the Keiser Report not more widely promoted or quoted. The slightly manic presentation style is quite irritating.

M said...

Putin presser yesterday.

When asked about the Ruble and oil prices recently he said:

"Russia is among the worlds leading countries as far as its gold and currency reserves are concerned. The Russian CB will pursue a balanced policy. That means it will be using a floating exchange rate. It will not waste its resources to support the Ruble mindlessly. "

He said gold first. I kinda wish he hinted and dumping $. And its reassuring that the Russians won't be doing a South Korea. ie sell their first borns, gold and their left arm to help their exchange rate.

Oh yeah and he also said regarding what if scenarios:
"If a grandma had a penis she would be a grandpa "

umm ok..

http://youtu.be/LJhhkVpZqnA?t=13m22s

M said...

Just reading about the inner workings of the ECB. Mainly its payment system called TARGET 2.

TARGET2 is the real-time gross settlement (RTGS) system owned and operated by the Eurosystem. TARGET2 is the second generation of TARGET. Payment transactions are settled one by one on a continuous basis in central bank money with immediate finality. There is no upper or lower limit on the value of payments. TARGET2 mainly settles operations of monetary policy and money market operations. TARGET2 has to be used for all payments involving the Eurosystem, as well as for the settlement of operations of all large-value net settlement systems and securities settlement systems handling the euro. TARGET2 is operated on a single technical platform. The business relationships are established between the TARGET2 users and their National Central Bank. In terms of the value processed, TARGET2 is one of the largest payment systems in the world.

My takeaway from reading the Wiki article and specifically the criticism on the Wiki page is that the Eurosystem isn't operating under a freegold system within the Eurozone. Yet. And the Germans aren't happy about it.

Maybe FOFOA has a take on TARGET 2.

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Desormais said...

Russia making it's largest purchase in 15 years.
https://twitter.com/PopescuCo/status/524185090155618304

Chinese market on fire
https://www.bullionstar.com/article/the%20chinese%20precious%20metals%20market%20is%20on%20fire

Indian sales to jump
http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report-gold-jewellery-sales-to-jump-by-35-during-dhanteras-say-experts-2027463

This is all physical, so where is it physically coming from ?
It has to come from somewhere.
If CB gold stays very still, then who is opening their vaults ?

Reality Show said...

9 tonnes removed from GLD today, Old Skool puke.
SGE reporting very strong Chinese wholesale demand.

M said...

@ PS

" So I suggest your thinking here I believe is not fully "FG-informed" yet ;) "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM4DkF2rQ4U

:) Joking... hope you have a sens of humor

Unknown said...

It's been almost two months since a FOFOA blog post.

I am jonesing....

DiverCity said...

Yes, the erswhile FOFOA. I've been here since the beginning and miss reading more frequent posts. Perhaps there's not much more left to be said.

Jim Okefenokee said...

Jack me lad,

as the Cantonese would say

" mo chin mo duk keng "

(no money no can talk)

JJ said...

Last month both gold and US$ is up.

The infrastructure for a free PoG is in place.

I think it will be interresting to see how this Chinese exchange is managed.

Alex in Montana said...

James Rickards: "In the Year 2024"

Good news: Gold to $40,000 oz.

Bad News: Must sell and buy other hard assets as gold confiscated. His point is governments do what is best fro them, not us or the economy.


JJ said...

And oil down.., and US giving guns to ISIS.

runninggloves said...

is velocity of an item somewhat related to the inverse of stock to flow ratio?
if something lies infinitely still , then velocity is near 0, which is valued dearly.
would it be fair to say that velocity is a function of stock to flow or credit of the system which is given by its users? which users domestic or international? tinking usd credit is given abroad not from within.
if credit is provided from abroad then whom? foreign public or foreign private?
how about existing currency,reserves / annual reserve creation being the stock to flow for currency which happens to be similar to some industrial commodities?
how to measure the velocity of au?

Steve said...

Patrick Barron: The End of the US Dollar Imperium. Featuring among others Jack "Rough" and Charly "the Gowl". Alas no FG here, he seeing the end but not the future. http://youtu.be/F_FD6z1u6iA

M said...

I'll donate again

But I just got my head knocked off on another round of gold mining shares

M said...

@running

All I know is that a reversal in the bond bull market will uptick velocity. That is where the confidence losing price inflation will come from. Upticks in velocity will be followed by capital flight. This is when the economy stops pulling on the central bank rope. Then the capital flight floods the forex markets with dollars and it's all over.

Robert said...

Divers City said: "Perhaps there's not much more left to be said."

I started thinking along those lines as soon as FOFOA posted Slow History. I remember he made the observation in that post that sometimes there is nothing left to do but sit and wait for things to unfold.

Given that there may not be much left to be said, I suppose that means FOFOA doesn't generate much income off this blog these days. I wonder if he has applied his mind and labor to other productive enterprises during this waiting period . . . so as to resume stacking . . . or is he is just hanging out at the beach in some inexpensive Central American country?

Michael dV said...

M
The irony (though as I recall you got into those miners a while ago) of losing on the one investment specifically denounced by freegold. Early on, FOA railed against using miners as a leverage on the real stuff. I feel fortunate in never being tempted. Holding gold itself is boring but not worrying about other ways to deploy savings does free up some time.
Right now I'm trying to learn my personal selection for the transition anthem...Tom Petty's The Waiting...Baby don't it feel like heaven tonight...

M said...

@ Micheal DV

I made money on the miners from 09 to 11 too though. I never fully agreed with FOFOA about the miners and I still don't. Either way, this is a blood in the streets moment for those people who think they have the fortitude to play this game. I just laugh when I hear idiots say "man if I had money in 2008, I would have bought so much stawks." Yeah right.

Or the BP oil disaster. "If I had money, I would have bought BP in 2010"
Yeah right.

Are these people buying gold stocks now ? Of course not.

Anyway how is now different then the gold standard days and the great depression ? The price of gold was fixed. You could never tell if the price was too high or too low for the miners. Gold stocks did well throughout the great depression even when there was more artificial forces in the market then there is today.

And miners also did well when Bretton Woods collapsed.

I still believe that the paper gold market will crack on the way up. Not down. We don't have an answer to this question yet....

As far as I know, physical is still available at these paper prices. And I might add that physical is not nearly as cheap now for people that are buying gold with something other then dollars.



Anand Srivastava said...

M:

I am not sure I understand your logic for why the market (gold) will crack on the way up. Yes it was expected that gold will go up a lot, and then it would crash, to the depths.

The logic for why it will break while going down is that, the price going down means that people are not putting too much money into Paper. And since the market is down, people are buying a lot of physical. The market eventually goes so low that the miners cannot sustain themselves. This is when the physical for keeping the physical in the market at the low prices is gone. That is when the mad hunt for physical begins and market breaks.

I don't see how the market will break on the way up. The market is up because people are buying physical, and the people are not buying much physical so the availability is good. Miners are making a lot of money. Yes I remember there was a problem with this scenario as well, but I don't think it was about market breaking. I seem to think that it was about paper pushers. Will have to read it again :-(, or maybe somebody will help.

runninggloves said...

one hears alot about naked shorts, what about naked longs? dont naked shorts get cancelled out by naked longs? now what is a naked long? if it is possible stop hunting to take place in a market, what is it to stop the intermediaries calculating the amount of contract holders that cannot ask for delivery. in other words leveraged longs are naked longs. one would posit that naked shorts are created to meet the naked/leveraged longs. to naked short against a cash buyer is just suicidal.

as far as paper going up in flames being imminent; sounds dramatic...

Roacheforque said...

Interesting ...
http://euobserver.com/economic/126240

Archer said...

My goodness, M, you are proving, yet again, to be quite the special case. A far greater mystery than the condition of the paper versus metal market is the mystery of why you come out here.

Anand wrote:

I am not sure I understand your logic for why the market (gold) will crack on the way up.

That's because there is no logic. The bolded word in the following sentence is the tell.

I still believe that the paper gold market will crack on the way up. Not down. We don't have an answer to this question yet

Read this carefully:

The paper gold market will not crack on the way up.

Consider that physical is always in demand by a certain global cohort regardless of the condition of paper gold. Got that? Eons before there was a paper market, physical gold was in demand. Physical has been in demand throughout the existence of the paper gold market, and physical will be in demand when the paper market becomes extinct.

Got that? Probably not, but, for the sake of discussion, pretend that you do. Now, when paper is on the way up, meaning it's in demand by the kind of folks who clamor for paper profits, aka western, return chasing, yield loving, investors like you, they tend quite markedly to want more paper rather than the real thing. Rising paper prices begets more interest in... paper, thereby making the further issuance of paper that much more viable.

Potential demand for the real thing by paper chasers like you is further diminished as paper goes up versus other kinds of paper. The folks who invented the paper market figured that out a long time ago. (That was a hint.)

Thrown into the bargain, mining output adds to the prospective flow of physical.

These are not exactly a set of conditions designed to break the paper gold market on the way up.

Anyway how is now different then the gold standard days and the great depression ?

How you can even think to ask that question is truly astonishing.

You have a lot of re-reading and re-thinking to do, but I am sad to report that here my experience lends to the distinctly hard to evade impression that it would not do you any good.

MatrixSentry said...

M is lazy.

M is convinced that his view is correct and is not interested in how this blog is different.

M is here in order to expound on his view and for us to confirm that view.

M is obviously misguided in his belief that this blog can offer any support for his views.

M is either incredibly dense, stubborn as Hell, or a troll in the making.

M is waste of time.

nearlynapping said...

“Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one.”

Voltaire

M said...

Archer

I never took an interest in the paper gold discussions (GOFO, GLD,) on here. It just goes on and on and on. I am more interested in the macro stuff.

You might think you know why "the market" is doing what its doing but you don't know. If paper gold was going to zero then shouldn't it be in a bubble now ? Or did Joe public and Wall Street get this one right for the first time ever ?

nearlynapping said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Archer,

There is perhaps another scenario where paper gold market will crack on the way up. China can easily cornered the physical gold market whenever they feel like it. They can easily crush the paper market by purchasing 3,000 tons of physical and take immediate delivery. If that doesn't work, buy another 5,000 tons and repeat the process.

When that happened, the ROW will see the paper gold emperor is naked. Nobody will want to buy any gold derivative no matter the price.

Btw, I have 5/6 in physical and 1/6 in miners and I just double down on ANV today.

Unknown said...

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Jeff said...

Here's a shoutout to all those posters who never took an interest in the rules of the game, even when their money was in the pot. In the card game of life they're drawing dead; the house thanks you.

FOA (06/12/00; 19:48:25MT - usagold.com msg#26)

Put your cards on the table!

The current paper gold world will die (burn) as its value to users erodes, not increases!

"Noone" gives a hoot about holding "price discovery" paper contracts as the real thing. Except for those with the real power to trade something for full payment! OIL!

Today, paper gold derivatives are for selling because they will eventually be politically defaulted once their discount to physical drives their value next to nothing.

…Again, most everyone in the Western Gold bug game is running with the ball in the wrong direction.

…So who is in danger of being hurt as this unfolds?

That's right, the Western paper gold long! I'm not talking about just the US market! This is about the entire world gold market as we know it today. The real play will be for the ones that get out in front of the move by owning physical…

It seems every Gold bug sees only half the trade and has great faith that contract law will favor a short squeeze. Yet, none of them see where it is the long that will be dumping and forcing the discount!

Nickelsaver said...

"“Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one.”

― Voltaire"


Do you think he was certain about that?

tEON said...

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

"In our current dollar gold market, the less gold is supplied, the more it pressures the price down! Players must create and sell not just more contracts to cover expiring ones, but also sell enough paper to force the price down further. In a market that's becoming shorter of physical gold, this is the only way they can add equity to cover rollover positions." FOA - The Gold Trail

Unknown said...

Jeff,

I don't think the long will be able to dump and force the discount. When the west cannot make delivery, both paper and physical gold price will be driven higher because of physical shortage. However, the higher price in paper gold will not benefit its holders since no one would want it.

When paper gold price in COMEX detach from the physical price originate from the Shanghai Gold Exchange ...........

Michael dV said...

Judie...'physical shortage'...I assume you mean of physical because paper can be printed at will, indeed it is printed at will and used to keep prices low so as to keep the short seller in the game.
Say you hold a bunch of short paper. The price starts rising and you are about to get a margin call. Solution? Sell a whole bunch more!!
If you are BIG and perhaps have a central bank behind you what's to lose?
When physical is not to be found then the system breaks. Instead of prices rising however the shorts will sell some more and get the price nice and low for the final cash settlement. I just don't see how prices can rise except for when the low price starts to drive more physical buying and TPTB decide to intervene to keep third world nobodies from breaking the market by buying too much. I'm not sure this has happened but it could.
GLD continues its slow loss of inventory. Not as much fun to watch as it was in 2013 but still amusing. Now I wonder not when does it go to zero but rather 'what is the magic number'?' In other words at what point do they just shut it down because the inventory gets too low.

said...

Its amazing the venom spewed by the disciples of FOFOA, as if he were Moses and his words were directly from God, when one dissents from the current line of thinking. Just go read FOFOA posts 'Forum 1600', 1700 or 1800(and especially the comments) from 2011. People were so sure of the crack on the way up. Then in 2013 when gold was dropping $100 in a day, the time had finally come where the paper maker was breaking and we were at the ultimate end(Prechter's 15 minutes of fame). 18 months later, we are relatively unchanged, official support doesn't appear to be going anywhere fast, and FOFOA posts less than once a month.

No one knows how things will play out, especially not the specifics. Just take a deep breath.

Dim said...

judie toy, I highly recommend reading FOFOA's post 'The Shoeshine Boy'.

Phat Repat said...

M
I like to play the paper game as well, something to while away the time until FG actually does arrive.

That said, looking at GDX, if it can hold 20.11, then you just might get your reprieve and the ability to rid yourself of the mining shares (and move to more physical for the arrival of FG :-).

Looking at the markets and how punchy they are, something is afoot and we could finally begin the long awaited arrival of FG. Looking forward to that but with slight trepidation.

Anand Srivastava said...

Luke:

You probably read a different version. What I read was that he surmised that it will go to 2500$/oz and then all the gold bugs will think its a top, and they sell to make profit. The selling will be so severe that there will be no bottom. The price will go so LOW that the market will break.

It was never that it will break on the way up, but that it would go up and then it will crash, till the point it breaks on the way down.

Judie Toy:

China can easily cornered the physical gold market whenever they feel like it.

Not just China; Russia or ECB could do the same. The real question is why would they do it? Do you think they will be desperate enough to break the market, and go down in history as the entity that caused the Great Crisis?

runninggloves said...

is it fair to say that those that save in currency inadvertently force the authorities hand to issue more of it?

so in the international realm, if fiat reserves are agreed upon between trading partners, then that forces the fiat reserve issuer well.... to issue more.

so if the saving tribe decides that paper is the medium of savings, eventually the tension of MoE and SoV function will require more and more intervention until the paradigm gives out.

Unknown said...

hope this isn't a duplicate post, but the shoe shine boy is reporting on GLD pukes.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tumblr/blog-glds-fall-from-grace-132619456.html

Unknown said...

Dim,

I read the "The Shoeshine Boy".

#1 The stock markets are currently at the bull trap phase and gold is at the bear trap phase.

#2 The future price of gold - which is NOT largely determined by investment demand. It's determined by COMEX paper derivatives until the inventory gets too low or there is no more physical gold for delivery. We are experiencing the second Gold Pool. The first London Gold Pool lasted 5 to 6 years. This is about to go into its forth year since 2011.

#3 "The whole sad story will end in a condom (paper gold) glut and a condom (paper gold) bust. The episode will be remembered as a condom (COMEX) bubble."

#4 "Today's official money is an "artificial collectible." Money production is limited by legal violence, not natural rarity." This explains what are happening in Ukraine, Iraq and Syria. Great insightful statement.

#5 "a rising gold price is evidence of increasing investment demand".

I think that has already happened in paper gold. When the Chinese started taking delivery, gold price must come down - 2nd Gold Pool. When the 2nd gold pool eventually dry up like the first, physical gold price will go up regardless of the price set by COMEX. When the premium for an ounce of physical gold is double or triple its paper price, there will be no volume in the paper gold market.

"Ultimately the stock to flow ratio of physical gold will go inverse to that of paper gold. Infinite flow demand against zero registered stock. Zero time until physical depletion, concurrent with infinite time until paper depletion. At this point the price will have to go infinite and paper supply will separate because parity will no longer exist."

#6 "And in case you haven't noticed, we are now, apparently, at a novel stage in the game. The stage when it is becoming obvious to almost everyone that the Fed can do nothing but print more money (QE), and that it plans to do just that. I draw your attention to gold trading at $1,301 today as evidence! "

I'm wondering what is up the fed's sleeve at this juncture. QE is going to end today and gold is trading at $1,222. The fed is truly a great magician.

Unknown said...

anand srivastava,

At $2,500, I will sell my miners but not my physical. If gold break over $2,000, that means that COMEX is broken and price will not crash back down for a long time.

Russians cannot corner the gold market. ECB is afraid to go against the US. China will like to gradually stripe the dollar of its reserve status via SDR. However, if we continue to stall the IMF "Reform Package", the Chinese will likely force our hands by cornering the physical gold market. They are not going to work for QE paper dollar forever.

Roacheforque said...

Perhaps the more central question when we argue over the gold market breaking "on the way up" or "on the way down" is ... "in terms of what?" Dollars?

"If one can only see value in terms of currency ...."

But more importantly, it is the action of the currencies, or the FX market that will "break" or "burn", will it not? Or does the gold market crash and currencies are "unaffected"? If the denominators (paper / debt / fiat) become invalid, how do we measure the (direction of) the gold market?

I leave you with that to ponder.

Anonymous said...

1/3

Although it's an old clip from 2013, I recommend listening to it again.
Robert Mundell, one father of the euro and advisor to the FED, the IMF and China talks about currencies, floating exchange rates and the current world financial system.

(Listen closely at around 38:07, when he openly admits that Korea's/China's dollar reserves cannot and will not be repaid.
They are irredeemable, a tribute to the empire. At least most of them.)

Why are foreign dollar reserves irredeemable?

„Since August 1971, when the countries of the World ceased to have the option of receiving gold in payment of their favorable balances of trade, or of extending credit by receiving dollars, the quantity of monetary reserves in world central banks has grown monstrously. Since there was no more payment in gold, the world had no option but to grant credit while it waited for the real payment – which has not arrived, and never will arrive.“

Only gold as a physical store of value without counterpart risk can cancel international debt and debt is the main US-export! The American Empire MUST talk gold down, manage it lower, ridicule it, declare it a „barbaric relic“ and eventually destroy its function as a store and a measurement of value.
(remember: Gold also illustrates relative values!)

So Gold and NOT any other currency or basket of currencies (SDR's) is the direct opponent of the Dollar reserve system.

Anonymous said...

2/3

From the perspective of foreign countries the solution of the Dollar-Reserve-Menace is the re-establishment of gold as a store and measure of value by slowly accumulating gold, making it accessible for everyone and trading it freely and revaluating it high enough so that the dollar (with counterpart risk) becomes less attractive than let's say a new gold-backed Yuan (without counterpart risk).
Just in case it isn't obvious: The BRICS do not plan to make the Yuan the new reserve currency. China is fine with SDR's as long as the Yuan is included and gold is marked to market.

From a US perspective the attack on the dollar reserve system can not be defended, only be delayed in time by pushing the export of debt! How? Read „Confessions of an economic hitman“!

The BRICSs plan

They are slowly accumulating all available physical gold and silver pretending to back the yuan with gold (the phys. gold market must be cleaned out for the revaluation to happen).
They are insisting on gold to play an important role as store of value (to avoid a new SDR-Empire).

That's it. That's enough to set gold free and break the rule of the American Empire, because there is only one way to go for gold. It has to be marked to market because the euro already exists and gold on the balance sheet of the ECB is already marked to market. Voila! Gold is traded freely and marked to market.
Freegold has arrived.


Why does it take soooo loooong to clean up the physical gold market?

The answer to this question is a political and a structural one:

Anonymous said...

3/3

Political: The American Empire takes every opponent to war without exception.
It took an awful lot of time and effort for Russia and China to overcome their distrust and unite against the empire. The same was true for Germany and France in Europe and India and China.
Today they are united against the american claim „to lead“. Today there is consensus to end The American Hegemonism.

Structural: It is not enough to destroy the federal reserve system, because there would have been no alternative to it. The result would have been wars and chaos all over the world.
They first had to design and build an alternative system beginning with currencies, exchanges, vaults, treaties and a lot of other robust financial and political structures. They did not need to rely on the „american empire stuff“. And they had to test these structures and systems under crash conditions, and under siege of the american financial and political fire power!
Don't you find it astonishing that the EURO is still there? Think about it!

But one day, not far from NOW, all structures will be ready for Freegold to take over.
It is inevitable. In my honest and humble opinion!

When the timing is right IMO it would take 1 day to clean up the physical gold market!

But do not be euphoric too early! Freegold will also eliminate a lot of middlemen between you and your responsibility for your own life!
Yes, it will help to keep the governments slim and healthy, but it will also put the same pressure on you to stay productive and healthy. 9/10th of the slag of societies will vanish, but also 9/10th of the patrons of the world! Money for nothing then is a thought of the past!
Do sth to get sth in exchange... Maybe this is what Another meant by saying:
„If you didn't "like the last system, you won't like the next"

IMO some of the next logical steps are:

- The Yuan will join the “Club SDR”
- The SDRs will be reset
- Currencies will be devalued by at least 30 percent and reset to reflect nations commodities, debts
and GDPs (~Mai 2015?)
- China announces her physical gold reserves, which is followed by
- Gold will be revalued substantially higher which is followed by
- the Paper Storm and the asset stripping! Which is followed by
- The nationalization of gold and silver mines which is followed by
- The debt forgiveness jubilee, the new rules and the kickstart


P.S.: With the arrival of FG this blog will lose 9/10th of its readers, namely the windfall people.
The ones who are in for the fast buck! Isn't it ironic that the mindset of these people will also be rejected in a FG world based on barter and not on speculation? Where do they go? :-)

M said...

@ anand S.

Why wouldn't Russia want to do it ? They could just play dumb and point to their reserves and say "we needed more gold" . The Ruble is falling every day. They could either sell dollars and buy Rubles but they would get way more bang for their buck if they just bought more and more gold. Putin has the nuclear option. I hope he has the balls and the foresight to use it.

Dante_Eu said...

Hi M,

Take a look at this interview. Very telling, It's a perfect example at how the west (traders) view gold. Especially last minute. Something you trade, up and down, as opposed to save, for unknown future. It's not the real thing ie. physical gold, it is golds representation on a screen, a number. It could be horse manure, what matters is that you can buy and sell it's representation on a computer screen. Yes, I know, paper gold need some small percentage physical to back it up, so it can't be horse manure after all. That's not what matters. What matters is the mindset of western traders, ie. 99% of western gold bugs out there.

As you are aware, what we are expecting here...anticipating...is the separation of that representation and real physical gold. Something you trade on a screen, opposed to own as a real physical thing, no longer being tied together. How will it happen? On the upside, downside or...maybe flat? Couldn't care less. If you anticipate separation of paper and physical, does it matter if you buy physical at 1.900$ , 1.200$ or 800$? Why play paper game at all? So you can buy more physical? Not satisfied how much physical you get if you buy it outright? That is the beauty of being a shrimp. We can get as much as we want of the real thing for the same price as its representation on a screen! For now at least. :-)

However, don't be too hard on yourself. We (westerners) are all born and live in a paper representation world. That's all we know. We save (trade?) accounting balances, representations of things, instead of actual things. And gold arena is a prime example of that.

So, when I watch an interview like that (which is 99% of interviews out there), that is when I feel like this:

There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says:
- "Morning, boys, how's the water?"
And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes,
- "What the hell is water?"

I'm not old nor wise, but that's the beauty of discovering ANOTHER\FOA\FOFOA, I need not be. ;-)

Archer said...

Roach wrote:

does the gold market crash and currencies are "unaffected"? If the denominators (paper / debt / fiat) become invalid, how do we measure the (direction of) the gold market?

You refer to a gold market crash. Paper gold isn't going to crash so much as it is going to be annihilated. Yes, it will lose digits on the way to oblivion, but, unlike other markets that lose digits and resuscitate in due course, paper gold will not live to trade another day.

As for mediums of exchange, particularly the dollar, they will certainly lose dramatically against physical gold, but they will not become invalid.

InowB4 wrote:

P.S.: With the arrival of FG this blog will lose 9/10th of its readers, namely the windfall people. The ones who are in for the fast buck! Isn't it ironic that the mindset of these people will also be rejected in a FG world based on barter and not on speculation? Where do they go? :-)

What fast buck would that be? I see nothing remotely fast about this process. If anyone manages to make a fast buck out of this, well, God bless them. As for the loss of 9/10 of the readership of this blog, come Freegold, I imagine there's a 90% chance that our dear host will have chosen to move onto something else by then.

P.S. As for the fate of the windfall people, I wouldn't worry too much about where" they'll be hanging their collective hats.

Certainly yours in certainty,

Archer

Michael dV said...

Luke
I have not gone over Fofoa's writing for the 2011 gold rally period but you are correct, no one was complaining and I personally thought 'hey, this is it.'
Also during this period of time we were trying to figure out the meaning of the changes in the GLD inventory.
Since that time I have personally read a lot more of the 'sacred text' and have learned that FOA certainly predicted a fall in the gold price as paper gold could just be printed and they could print all they want.
I know I think about things differently now than I did then. I doubt you'd catch Fofoa in an error but if you do let us know.
The reason that folks get told to read the blog is that there just are not that many questions that can be asked and most have been answered ...many times. It is not that Fofoa's word is gospel it is just that those of us still here have come to see his point of view as being consistent and likely one that will play out as the monetary system continues to develop. I have yet to hear anyone defend anything he said as being true just because he said it...we're not that kind of cult.
Most of us who have stuck around have a lifetime of real savings to protect. We are trying to figure out why we lost our asses twice in 8 years. Fofoa started out that way too.
There is something happening that is not how it is described on CNBC. The closest thing to a consistent story is the one I get here. It is not out of loyalty to fofoa personally that I remain here. It has been his ability to unravel the writing of Another and FOA and explain them in flushed out ways that seem to accurate interpretations of their thoughts.
I read many other gold writers and all of the rest have big holes in their stories. Usually they miss the significance of the Euro or the impossibility of a return to a gold standard but they often have other problems too. So far I have not found an obvious problem with the FG perspective. All the answers are just not available but at least I can interpret most events without having to wonder how some news item fits into my world view.

Michael dV said...

B4
I'll be one of the 'gone' group too. 5 years ago if you tried to tell me that in the next 4.5 years I would log 8,000 hours reading about the monetary system and worrying about the stability of the dollar, I would have ignored you. I have done that though because the events coming will be so important that I want to understand what is happening. If we do see a transition to a FG system I want to be able to educate others about what just happened and I'll start by sharing the ideas of Another, FOA an Fofoa. I'll also be pretty tired of spending hours every day sitting like a mushroom pouring over ZeroHedge and watching Jim Willie videos. (Actually Willie is just entertainment and I don't count him in the 8,000 hours).History and the monetary are boring. It is that we are at a point of change that makes this exciting. Once the game is over and we know the final score it will be time to leave and go home (or to a nearly deserted island just Pataya)...yep, I'll be gone. I doubt you'll find Fofoa either but who knows maybe he'll do a TV show next.

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
M said...

@ Judy

Russia has the 5th biggest forex reserve hoard in the world. I never said anything about "corning" the gold market. They could just buy on the comex and take delivery of hundreds of tons of gold.

Anand Srivastava said...

jodie toy:

At $2,500, I will sell my miners but not my physical.

Exactly, that is why it will fall. Everybody will be selling their paper gold. Nobody sells Physical. But in the western world precious few have physical. And the selling of the Paper will cause the price of gold to go too low. Yeah it sure won't go that high, because more paper will be created to keep the price low.

Anand Srivastava said...

jodie toy:

Russians cannot corner the gold market. ECB is afraid to go against the US. China will like to gradually stripe the dollar of its reserve status via SDR.

How much money does Russia need to corner the market? Is the market that big? You only need to buy a couple of hundred tons OPENLY to crash the market, while saying that paper is worthless. Even a small country could do it.

Nobody is afraid of US, at least not these 3. China has more to lose by trying to overtly crash the system, because they are still are tied a lot to the IMF. They are getting away, but it will take some time.

Same with ECB.

The only large entity that is not tied to USD is Russia. But I don't think anybody would be stupid enough to crash the market overtly. Russia is buying gold, and not a small amount either, but not very openly. That is a better strategy to obtain a lot more gold, as it gives you more time.

Unknown said...

anand srivastava & M,

"You only need to buy a couple of hundred tons OPENLY to crash the market, while saying that paper is worthless. Even a small country could do it." and,
"They could just buy on the comex and take delivery of hundreds of tons of gold."

Both statements are true. But that is also what is really bothering me. Russians are buying but nowhere near what the Chinese are importing. Germany wants its gold but can't get it. Indian government has been setting up obstacles to block consumption to facilitate flow to China.

If gold would be the reserve asset which all central banks need after the dollar's reign, why are the Chinese getting all the gold? Why didn't the Russian, Indian and European complain that majority of the gold flow seems to be pre-arranged for China?

vizeet srivastava said...

M,
I don't understand how falling Ruble is bad for Russia. It is export driven country. Lower Ruble means more profit from export. Western media is saying that Russian economy is in bad shape because of falling Oil but in reality Shale gas has much higher input cost then oil wells. So it is US which suffers from falling oil and not Russia.

nearlynapping said...

@nickelsaver. I think it was a generalization.

The comments here are the best anywhere in my view. My complaint is that even here the belief by some in a specific path is akin to a religion; intolerant of any competing path.

I think the most likely path to freegold is a decline that spurs physical demand. But that is not the only way to freegold.

Anonymous said...

@PS

Forget phys. gold for a moment. Only 1% of the population has phys. gold at all.
The remaining 99% will experience the transition to Freegold as a nightmare.
Approximately 90% of which have no property and depend on a job or a government.
I'm talking about these 90%.
We both know that money is created by credit creation, meaning debit and credit must always be the same amount. This will not change in the new system.
Thus, if debts are liquidated or, in a larger scale, currencies are devalued, credits disappear on the same scale. What's new in FG is that the savers have an unprecedented opportunity to save their productivity of work in an asset, which does not lose its value by the printing of new money. At least not nearly as big as before.
While I can see the progress in the system by solving Fofoa's dilemma, however, I still see the fundamental conflict that arises when debt and credit are created at the same time!
The wealth of the one enforces the poverty of another! Let's call this conflict just for fun
"InowB4's Dilemma": the more force the savers exert to become rich, the more force is exerted on the debtors to become poorer! A zero-sum system.
Freegold therefore does not solve the basic conflict. It reduces only the zeros in a zero-sum system! This reduction of the zeros will reflect the basic conflict much more clearly than before, where you could hide the conflict by monetary expansion and savings in irredeemable assets such as US government bonds.
The above mentioned 90% have-nots will seek possession as usual while, according to "InowB4's dilemma", forcing others in poverty.

Nothing new, you say? Right. But the pressure will be much more visible in FG.
If, as before, 90 Have-nots are facing 9 Have-somethings and one rich person, the rich person will voluntarily show a very small profile in the transitional phase, do you agree?!

The Have-nots will not be bothered by a big currency devaluation, but, even more by an enormous reduction of the welfare state or labor supply.
So they are not only hostile to the rich person (eventually the rich have to become poor, so the Have-nots can become rich), they can also expect no gifts from the government outside their basic needs. And there will be fewer and fewer jobs due to automation. A lot of tinder to start a fire, do you agree?
I do not know the future. But in my perspective Freegold is only the next logical step.
For the solution of "InowB4's Dilemma" the world does need another system!


P.S.: I really do not enjoy that a dilemma is named after me. :-))
Now I know, how u must feel FOFOA. hahaha

M said...

@ aand S

What if the US runs the Ruble into the ground ? Russia won't have a choice eventually.

What about a billionaire ? Couldn't one of them buy a hundred tons ? Eric Sprott is probably thinking about it.

Tommy2Tone said...

"P.S.: I really do not enjoy that a dilemma is named after me. :-))
Now I know, how u must feel FOFOA. hahaha"

No Points, sorry :(.

Jeff said...

Sprott spotted?

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/03/sprott-attempts-gold-buy-video.html

Nickelsaver said...

Why wouldn't Russia want to do it ? They could just play dumb and point to their reserves and say "we needed more gold" .

After a few years hanging around these parts, I am amazed at how little some of the regulars (like you "M") understand. I can only conclude that you either do not read the blog, but simply hang out in the comments. Or that your own baggage is so daunting that you are incapable of letting it go in order to grasp and peer thru the Freegold lens.

As for Russia, China, etc. I think they understand the market very well. I mean, if little ole Saudi Arabia gets it, (gold will flow to you as long as you don't run up the price), I'm pretty sure China and Russia get that too.

China gets it because they were willing to levitate the dollar in order to play catch up to the likes of the EU and USA in terms of gold possession.

Russia gets it, because like Saudi Arabia, they have a resource that the ROW desires, and that they can be very well compensated for in the here and now. A low gold price means they get way more gold for there resource than they will after the transition.

Russia and China are NOT looking for the top in a would be commodity. They are looking for the best exchange rate they can get. They understand that they are getting it right now. Why would they want to mess with that.

It's really quite simple. Anyone that could crash the system, has more motivation to hold it up or to step to the side.

Eric Sprott? lololololololololol



Nickelsaver said...

BTW

Anyone taking notice of the gold oil ratio? It's on the up.

What does that mean? To me, it means that oil is still getting gold, or at the very least, it still thinks it can.

Michael dV said...

Judie
I don't have the reference handy but I read Russia got 25 tons in the past few months. I don't think central banks will need that much gold to function. They won't be needing a certain percentage of their currency in gold as in the gold standard. Just enough to defend the currency in a free floating currency environment.
Some gold will have to flow from net importing countries. When a freegolder buys a foreign car he might redeem some gold to get the cash. That gold might flow to the producer of the car. It will be the people who will need gold.
I wonder how much of the Chinese gold is going to the CB and how much to savers.

Phat Repat said...

Slowly, the worm is turning:

Alan Greenspan: QE Failed To Help The Economy, The Unwind Will Be Painful, "Buy Gold"

Mr. Greenspan said gold is a good place to put money these days given its value as a currency outside of the policies conducted by governments.

Yes, I know he said "currency"; but it's a start.

Edwardo said...

Old Eric Sprott had a thought, he didn't quite think through
He wanted gold, quite a lot, some forty tons would do
But when he tried to buy the *cheese* the CB did eschew
They laughed and said, "Sprott you sot, we don't sell to tykes like you."

Nickelsaver said...

Hey Jeff,

Here's a relevant FOFOA quote from the comment stream from the post you referenced...

...FOA drove this point home, that when the paper markets are publicly discredited the price will fall because anyone seeking real physical will go elsewhere.

Most goldbugs expect a massive short covering rally to come once the game is exposed. FOA always said the paper markets were leveraged 100:1 and that when this was exposed the price would tumble knowing that settlement must be in paper. Not saying that is what's happening right now, but that is what to expect.


That was 2010. What was that nonsense someone wrote about the expectation in 2011 being that the system crash on the way up?

runninggloves said...

@nickelsaver
just playing devils advocate here
which came first? selling paper gold without sufficient metal backing, or buying paper gold without sufficient cash for delivery settlement?

that aside
so when paper burns, ok value that was ascribe to currency and its derivatives which includes say bonds, deposits and insurance policies get transfered to gold

real estate, lets call it less than 10 oz for a very fine house for us shrimps, commercialRE gets burned big time since business slows down during currency fire

now about equities, I gave this some thought but could only come to the conclusion that the credit part which is whatever that is above book value gets transferred to metals. which is safe to say maybe half of share values get transfered to metals. but dont corporates have debts outstanding? so maybe it helps a bit but not much. alright so we can also acknowledge business slowing down by alot when paper burns, since the businesses are built on the paper paradigm. so maybe we say consumer discretionaries get burned big time. what else? services too? it seems like all sectors get burned big time except consumer staples. im just having a difficult time trying to quantify/estimate the burn-ness of businesses in general during a currency fire.

any help?

vizeet srivastava said...

Michael dV,

I think gold bugs are making wild estimate about amount of gold in Chinese reserves. In my understanding China has huge shadow banking sector which uses physical gold as collateral. I think lot of gold import is being consumed by them. I am quite sure Chinese reserve is less than 3000 tonnes.

Steve said...

@M If Sprott was about to do such a foolish thing, a group of men would invite him for a meeting. They would sit in a small room and then they would run the Kennedy assassination tape.

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nickelsaver said...

runninggloves

Hope this helps!

http://youtu.be/-aNxhQKAXxE

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